Transcript

[00:00:00] Aubrey Bergauer: Hey, everyone. Happy December. I hope you had an awesome turkey day last week and got to eat some delicious food and spend time with loved ones over the holiday weekend. And if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving, I hope you definitely still got some rest and had an opportunity to recharge a bit. We hosted a Friendsgiving here and got to take the new kitchen for a test run.

We'll Which I gotta say that is quite the test run hosting Thanksgiving dinner when we're still kind of figuring out all the new appliances and which drawer things are in now and that kind of thing but you know go big or go home I guess. So we had a lot of fun and then spent the rest of the weekend decorating for Christmas which is just one of my favorite favorite things to do.

So here we are coming to the end of the year. And we are also continuing this series of bonus episodes here on the Offstage Mic. [00:01:00] So welcome to part two of this three part mini series. Last episode, I introduced this bonus series. It's all from a three part webinar series that wrapped up earlier this fall.

It's called, They Never Taught You That, How to Grow Your Career in Arts Management. And when I say grow your career, what I really mean is growing your leadership skills, your leadership chops in this business. And this is not about getting a new job. Some people think automatically career growth means, you know, climbing a ladder, new job, new gig.

And I guess it could mean that. But. That's not really the point of this training. It's about growing our leadership, your leadership in this business. That was a three part training, as I mentioned, and it's all based on the fact that, you know this already probably, but for most of us working in the industry of arts and culture with careers in arts management, There is simply a lot we were never taught about leadership, and unfortunately, [00:02:00] you can't win a game if you don't know the rules.

And that's just the premise of this whole thing. So over the course of this three part training, I talk about the seven research backed steps, but really seven research backed skills, I should say. That are necessary to growing your leadership, specifically tailored to your work, our work, in the arts. So, I played an adapted version of part one last episode.

If you have not had a chance to listen to that, I recommend you do that. Go back because today's episode is part two, as I mentioned, and it really does build on part one. Like it, it kind of stands alone, but I highly, highly recommend, like, if you haven't listened to part one, the previous episode, just press stop now, pause now, go back and get that content because I think it'll be more helpful to you if you do it in that order.

One of the really important tools we used in part one and that we are going to continue to use today is a free workbook [00:03:00] to go along with everything I'm covering, which includes everything you're hearing in these episodes. So if you didn't download the workbook last time, go ahead and do that if you want to maximize these episodes, maximize this material, make it work hard for you.

So press pause, go download it right now on my website, www. aubreybergauer. com. 40. That's four zero for episode 40, which P. S. How is this episode 40? But anyways, we are going to use the workbook to revisit some of the visioning and self reflection exercises from part one in a few minutes. Plus we're going to use it to set up a new exercise that we're going to hit today.

So again, just go ahead and download it if you can, in order to make this material. Just help you the most, basically, is what I'm trying to say.

And before we get to the workbook, though, part two of this series, They Never Taught You That, [00:04:00] really has two components. So the agenda for today is first, We're going to talk about negotiation. Now you might remember this from part one, the previous episode, that this topic, this skill of negotiation is one of the seven research backed skills needed to grow in your leadership that I talked about earlier.

Just really about. Leaning in to the confidence you have or building the confidence you have in what you bring to the table to really master the ebb and flow of getting what you know you deserve and doing it in a way where everybody comes out satisfied. And that is absolutely possible, but is absolutely skillful to get to that point.

And I just want to say it's not all about money either. This topic of negotiations, it's a lot about money because who doesn't want more of that? But it's not totally about money. It's not entirely about money. And in fact, I would say the skills around all this certainly aren't always [00:05:00] involving money. So we're going to unpack all that together in this episode.

Now the second part of today's training, today's episode is building on that vision piece I mentioned. So I talked about. Building on what we started in part one, the previous episode, and today that really starts getting into defining our zone of excellence versus our zone of genius. What's the difference?

What's better for each of us to focus on? If you don't know those terms, don't worry. I'm going to define it. I'm going to explain it all in detail when we get there. All right. That's the overview and I am so excited to bring you part two of They never taught you that. How to grow your career. And by career, I mean your leadership in arts management.

Let's do it. I'm Aubrey Bergauer and welcome to my podcast. I'm known in the arts world for being customer centric, data obsessed, and for growing [00:06:00] revenue. The arts are my vehicle to make the change I want to see in this world, like creating places of belonging, pursuing gender and racial equality, developing high performing teams and leaders, and leveraging technology to elevate our work.

I've been called the Steve Jobs of classical music and the Sheryl Sandberg of the symphony. I've held off stage roles managing millions of dollars in revenue at major institutions, been chief executive of an orchestra where we doubled the size of the audience and nearly quadrupled the donor base. And now I'm here to help you achieve that same kind of success.

In this podcast, we are sorting through data and research inside and outside the arts. Applying those findings to our work in arts management and bringing in some extra voices along the way, all to build the vibrant future we know is possible for our institutions and for ourselves as offstage administrators and leaders.

You're listening to The Offstage Mic.[00:07:00] 

Hi, everyone. Aubrey Bergauer here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to tell you about Annual Fund Toolkit. If you're a nonprofit looking to revolutionize your fundraising strategies, you need to know about Annual Fund Toolkit. They're not just another consulting firm. They're specialists in transforming annual funds through data driven donor engagement.

What sets Annual Fund Toolkit apart is their laser focus on two critical challenges, improving donor retention and growing the major gifts pipeline. You can see why I like them, right? They combine fundraising expertise, data analysis, and strategic planning to help nonprofits like yours, reach your goals.

I'm particularly excited about their work in the art sector. They have helped organizations like Austin Chamber Music Center and Castle of Our Skins, unlock their fundraising potential and get this. You get one dedicated strategist to help with all aspects of running your fundraising shop, from data to major gift [00:08:00] coaching.

It's like having an entire fundraising department that intimately understands you and the arts. Annual Fund Toolkit provides a clear roadmap to donor loyalty, automated dashboards to track your progress, and a catalog of proven playbooks. I know their founder Louis Diaz personally, and I think he is hands down one of the most brilliant minds in fundraising I've ever met.

Whereas many arts groups are stuck with old models that aren't working anymore, the organizations that utilize Louis's advice and assistance are coming out ahead. If you are ready to take your fundraising to the next level, visit annualfuntoolkit. com. That's www. annualfuntoolkit. com. Trust me, your donors and your mission will thank you.

Now let's dive into today's episode.

Okay. One more time. Welcome to part two of they never taught you that how [00:09:00] to grow your career in arts management. So to start off, I want to recap a little bit from last episode. We talked about the challenges of navigating a career today in 2024. But really, almost 2025, as I'm recording this, we talked about the hidden rules of arts management.

You know, nobody gave you a handbook on how to differentiate yourself, how to promote yourself, how to build your personal brand, how to manage up, get buy in for your ideas. The list goes on and on and on. And so if that's you. No shame in the game, but these are the things that we just, at least for most of us, you know, painting with a very broad brush, most of us just were not ever taught in our training.

And as I keep saying, You can't win a game if you don't know the rules, and that's just a fact. So, what do we do about it? That's why we're here. Research gives us answers. We talked about this a lot in Part 1. We're going to talk more [00:10:00] about the research today in Part 2 as well. And the good news in all of this is that the research really helps us a lot, actually, on these topics.

There are statistically proven ways to navigate all of this. Statistically proven ways to build our leadership skills. Leadership is not something we are born with, okay? Leadership is something that can be learned. It's a muscle we can build. You know, all those things. So, we are going to drill down on this a lot today.

Just really honing in more and more on why the research really matters here. And the other thing is you got to know where you're going so that you can plan to get there. The visioning exercise that we started last time is really a prerequisite to what we're going to do today. You can't get where you're trying to go if you don't know where to go.

So just recall that vision from last time. I asked you, uh, you know, a year from now, what's your destination? Where are you in your career? What home are you living in? Where are you spending your time? What type of work are you doing? You know, all of that, like [00:11:00] start to kind of recall that from last time.

So it can be sort of, uh, bobbling around the back of your head as we're getting started here. And I would say true for any type of goal setting. Whether personal or professional or very project based, or in this case, very, you know, sort of life based, career based, always, always, the first step is visioning the destination.

You have to start with the end in mind so that you can reverse engineer it. So, anyways, that's what we started last time. Gonna get more into it today. Starting to do more of the reverse engineering piece, I'd say. And finally, just to continue to recap, we also talked last time about the seven research backed skills required on that journey.

And I talk about these a bit in part one, so just really quickly, let me run it down to recap here. Those seven skills are one, knowing the do's and don'ts of job search. That's do's and don'ts as a candidate and as a hiring manager that has to do with equitable hiring, fair hiring, inclusive hiring. Thank you for listening.

[00:12:00] Two, standing out from the pack. How do you position yourself in the marketplace? Personal branding. Uh, when the candidate pool is very crowded, how do you separate yourself? In other words, step three or skill three negotiations. That's negotiating salary, collective bargaining agreements, contracts. We are going to be spending a lot of time on that today.

So put a pin in that. Skill number four of seven, bringing others along. We have to know how to bring others along with us and with our ideas. If we're ever going to make change within our organizations, this also involves skills of managing up skills of managing laterally among our peers as well. Uh, just so much to say on that.

For now, skill five of seven company culture, how to set and contribute to a strong internal culture, no matter your role in the org chart. It's not just for the seat at the top. We did multiple episodes on this topic in the last season of the Offstage Mike. There is a massive body of research on how to build strong company [00:13:00] cultures, so that's all there if you want more on that.

Number six of seven, understanding the qualities of high performing teams, high performing leaders, and high performing organizations. This is all very research based as well. And here's the deal. Working in arts management is a team sport. True for any sector for that matter, I'm sure. But It took me, if I'm being honest, it took me a really long time to understand the importance of this.

It's not a solo sport, as I said in the last episode, it's a team sport and you cannot navigate a career in arts management without being part of a team or leading a team. So you need to know the research behind what makes good, strong, high performing teams, leaders, organizations. And number seven of seven, revenue generation.

No matter what role you're in, what role you aspire to, if you can understand and articulate the connection between how your role can contribute to generating revenue, and I [00:14:00] promise you it can, there is some connection for any single role within an arts organization to revenue, you can make yourself indispensable.

And that's a pretty good place to be. So, okay, that's the recap and review. Like I said, I am excited to really, in this episode, get into number three on that list, which is negotiation. It's something that affects all of us at some point in our careers, most likely multiple times throughout our careers. So we're going to get into that very soon, but I wanted to start part two here.

with what's really behind all this. So this comes right back to the research and why research is so important, why I let it guide me in my decisions and in my approach to things, life, work, strategies, and how it has served and informed, I think it's fair to say. Every upwardly mobile step I've taken in arts management and why I use that research for trainings like this.

And [00:15:00] really, if you know me at all at this point, why I use research for all of the information that I share in all of my content, all of my teaching that I bring to you. So with that introduction, let's pick it up in this training right now.

Here is why I teach from the research. as opposed to teaching from advice. I shared a little bit of this in part one, but to say it again because this is so important to what we're doing here. Advice can be well meaning, of course. Advice is just about always based on somebody's personal experience. That means, if we're talking in statistical language, it is an N of 1.

A sample size of one. It's somebody's experience they're drawing from to share their advice with you. So it can absolutely be well meaning, can absolutely be intentional, um, and well intended, but I shared in part one, maybe you remember about a time when I got some bad advice [00:16:00] from a big fancy CEO and maybe that worked for him, but it did not work for me and I really suffered the consequences.

So an N of one, another way to say that is not statistically significant. The converse is research is statistically significant. We're talking about statistically significant sample sizes and research doesn't mean it's always applicable. That's important. It doesn't mean always. It means the sample size was statistically significant or representative is another way to say that.

So representative means it applies to many. So I'll take my chances on applies to many. Over applies to one pretty much any day. Hope you're tracking with me. So we talked in part one about how yes, research is Something that sometimes we see ourselves, we see ourselves in the data, and that makes a lot of sense.

But sometimes research that is statistically significant and [00:17:00] applies to many, is representative of many, doesn't include us in the many, right? And so sometimes research and data helps us see others. And that is so, so critically important to our work as leaders. Sometimes we see ourselves, Sometimes it allows us to see others.

So, Jim experienced this, uh, he's been a part of a few different programs over the years, and Jim said it this way, he said, this knowledge and research is invaluable, validating in some ways, and eye opening with other items. So, again, that's what representative data does, and that's exactly what Jim is describing.

Sometimes it really is eye opening for us, and sometimes it feels validating as well. Another reason I teach from the research, not from opinion is because research and data serves you no matter where life takes you. It is true today. It is true tomorrow. It's true two years from now. Unless new reach research comes out for some reason, validating or invalidating, but it, it stands the test of [00:18:00] time is what I'm trying to say.

And that is also important because the things we learned today, if you learn how to apply to where you are now. You can reapply to where you're going to be next year, year after that, year after that. So that is really important in terms of um, just the longevity of what we're learning here together.

Julia is a past participant in my Uplevel program and she said, though I'm no longer in the arts field directly, I'm still using a lot of Aubrey's research, tips and expertise in my new field as there are a lot of parallels. So that's what we like to see, applying to us no matter, no matter where our life or career takes us.

And here's another reason why I teach from the research. It gives you new ideas. I love new ideas and Kevin experienced this as well. He said more often than not when it comes to business and leadership practices in the performing arts We're left to either tell me this. Oh god. Tell me if this resonates.

We're left to either make it up as we go Or, [00:19:00] continue the dated patterns of our predecessors. Aubrey is an established 21st century arts professional with a wealth of knowledge and proven experience. And I'm really grateful for the compliment, but what he's really referring to is the research I assembled that gave him the new ideas that he has just wonderfully applied to his own work and leadership.

So let's talk about it then. What does the research say about negotiations? What happens when you nail some of these previous steps I mentioned? You do successfully set yourself apart in the marketplace. You do know your purpose and know the value you bring, and you're articulating that in your applications and your cover letters.

You show up confidently in the interview process and show up as yourself, whether that's as a candidate or as an employer, no matter where you are on that side of the equation. What happens when you make it to the finish line? You get an offer. And then it's time to negotiate. Or if you're the hiring manager, you're the one making the offer.

It's [00:20:00] time to negotiate either way. So we are going to go through my top negotiation tips. These are all research based. Uh, these definitely apply to job offers, but also I said it before, I'll say it again, it applies to any kind of collective bargaining agreement negotiations. So many of us here are part of those CBA negotiations.

And so a lot of this is. Totally applicable there too. And I will say the tips I'm going to share, there are I think eight of them. Yeah. And This is not fully comprehensive. This is just my top eight. There's a lot more than what I'm able to bring to you in the time we have today. Uh, but the sources for this that I'm sharing from is, uh, two different sources.

Primarily one is Deepak Malhotra. He is a professor at the Harvard business school. He has an excellent book. I highly recommend it's called Negotiating the Impossible. And the subtitle is something about without money or muscle. Okay, tell me if this resonates. Like, in the [00:21:00] arts, we have no money, have no muscle.

Like, that is, I can't That's true. Like that's true when we go to the negotiating table, right? Like what do we do? How do we negotiate when we don't have a lot of money? How do we still get what we want in the package if we don't have a lot of muscle, meaning lots of lawyers, lots of staff, lots of whatever, like, I don't know.

To me, this just really, when I read that subtitle, I was like, yeah. So if you downloaded the workbook for this training, uh, there is also linked a great video on Deepak Malhotra, uh, sharing, uh, tips specifically on negotiating job offers and I definitely recommend watch that video if you want more where this came from.

And then the other source I'm primarily pulling for all of this is from Maggie Neal. She is a professor at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and there's also a great video from her that we've linked to in the workbook for this training. So, more tips for sure than what I'm able to share just right now, and definitely more tips than even these two resources.

But here we go. If I had to [00:22:00] boil it down to my top eight, these are it. Number one, always negotiate. This comes from not just those two sources I mentioned, but pretty much every source ever in the history on planet earth of negotiating, always negotiate, and particularly with job offers. So, when you get that call that the job is yours.

Let's say they make the pitch, they go over the details, whatever they say, doesn't even matter, whatever they say, here's what you do. You thank them, you communicate your excitement, and you say, I want to read it over and get back to you with questions. That's your script, okay? And the questions are then what you get to come back to with your points that you want to negotiate.

So always do this. I'll say it again. Thank them. Communicate your excitement. This is, I'm so grateful. Thank you. Super excited. I want to read over everything and I'll get back to you with any questions I have. And that's the third one. So you want to read it over and get back to them with questions and your questions then get to be the points you want to negotiate.[00:23:00] 

Number two, they have to believe you deserve it. Do not. ever asked for anything, anything in a negotiation setting without stating why, why you deserve it. It is not enough for you to think you deserve it. You should think you deserve it, but that's not enough. So they need to be able to, this is why you have to say the why, very meta, uh, They have to be able to go back to others in their company.

This is true, whether it's CBA or job offer, they have to be able to go back and write or say, or make the case, make the argument on your behalf. So for example, for CBA negotiations, I definitely remember in settings with our players committee, we had a. Trying to give them the talking points to help them go back to the rest of the orchestra and make the pitch for whatever we talked about.

They can take it or leave it, this is true for anybody on the other side, but for you to try to like give [00:24:00] them fodder, write the script for them as much as you can so they're like, oh yeah right, this is what we talked about, this is why this person's worth it, this is why, you know, such and such. So, um, definitely be able to make the case for why you deserve it and they have to believe it too, otherwise the Most likely will stall.

Number three. I love this one. You need to be flexible on which currency they pay you in. This is a big one. So often we think it's just money, money, money. And yes, I want that. Hope you want that too, but that's not the totality of the package. So Deepak Malhotra, Uh, goes a little deeper. He says, quote, You shouldn't care about the salary, the bonus, the moving package, the vacation days, etc.

You should care about the entire deal. And that's what we're talking about. So the more options, he says, the more options you give them on how to be paid, the better. So here's a couple of examples for you on this. [00:25:00] I remember there was one organization, so several years ago now, um, they couldn't come up on salary.

And they could, however, give me more paid time off. So I was able to negotiate a really great vacation package days off deal. And so that was great, of course, for the time at that organization, but then I was able to take that with me to the job after that. So then when I'm negotiating that compensation package, I'm also able to say in addition to the salary and other parts of the package we're negotiating, I was able to say, you know, the job I'm coming from, I have X, Y, Z weeks of vacation.

I forget how many it was at this point, but like, can you match that? So it wasn't just something that was helpful for me for that one job. I was able to take it with me multiple jobs down the line. Um, another example is, this was also several years ago. There was an organization, uh, where I got an offer.

And it included the health insurance, but I didn't need to be on the medical plan because Cause at the time I was on my partner's [00:26:00] plan and instead of just declining that benefit, that would be leaving money on the table. I was able to negotiate the salary higher because I was able to say, if I declined the medical plan, can we add what you would be paying as an employer into that plan?

Can we add that instead to the salary line? And was able to get that to be a yes. So I just give these examples to share. Like there are other levers we can pull. Of course we want cash at the end of the day, but there are other currencies. that help with compensation too. So you should care about the entire deal.

All right, time for a quick break. When we come back to the second part of today's training, I'll get into the rest of my top eight strategies for negotiation and also get your workbook out if you're not already using it to follow along because visioning that we did in part one. And use that to go [00:27:00] deeper into what parts of your vision you're already living.

You may not even know it, but some parts are likely part of your life now already, even if small or hard to see. And we're going to talk about how pulling those little threads can guide you to the bigger life and goals you see for yourself.

Good marketing talent can be hard to find. That's why I'm so glad I discovered marketer hire. As my business has grown this year, I can definitively say a part of that growth was because of the way Marketer Hire helped me not just find good marketing talent I needed, but how fast they did it and how they worked to match me with the perfect people.

First, I reached out about an email copywriting project and email platform migration we were going through, and Marketer Hire matched me with Jamie within a week. A few months later, we needed technical support on our Google analytics. And they had us connected to Alec within days. Both Jamie and Alec needed zero [00:28:00] training, were incredible to work with and experts in their respective areas.

And most important, they completely delivered on time, on budget, and got the results I needed. What I like about marketer hire is that you can engage someone for as long or short as you want. I hired Jamie for a three month project, for example. On the intake call, they really listened to what I said I needed.

I even said that I need someone with an interest in the performing arts. And it turned out, Jamie had a theater background and is still a member of her local thespian troupe to this day. Both Jamie and Alec were able to move my projects forward so much quicker than if I had led a traditional hiring process or search.

The whole thing was really easy from start to finish, and they never made me feel obligated to proceed if I didn't want to. They were even able to work with my small business budget. At your arts organization. Imagine working with fortune 500 level talent who ramps up to understand your work fast and then delivers great results.

[00:29:00] Get a 1, 500 credit toward your first hire. When you go to try. marketerhire. com slash offstage, Mike, that's try. marketerhire. com. M A R K E T E R hire. com slash offstage Mike, whether your arts organization needs email copywriting or Google analytics set up like I did, or if you need paid ads, paid search or even a fractional CMO market or hire, we'll get you set up with top talent fast.

One more time. That's try dot market or hire. com slash offstage Mike to get started and get your 1, 500 credit.

Number four. Avoid negotiating over a single issue. Wow, I wish I could just, like, put this on a banner, um, in, like, every CBA conference [00:30:00] room. It's so much, uh, It's so beneficial to everybody involved when you don't split hairs over one issue at a time. You actually get a stronger deal for all involved this way.

There are a bunch of reasons for this. So, sometimes, even a, introducing a relatively minor second issue is enough to dislodge a stalemate. And that's why single issues, if you're picking apart every single issue, it really comes down to whether you mean to or not, kind of a mental tally of who conceded, who didn't.

But when it's in a package, it just like, it kind of blends that together. So everybody really comes much more willing to think about the totality of the deal, which is why the deal is stronger for all involved. So if you are down to a single issue, or maybe in a job offer situation, you're like, I really only care about this one thing.

Even introducing a minor second issue can help. So, for example, let's say what you really want is more paid time off. [00:31:00] But you can then come to them and say, you know, here's my question, uh, really excited for the offer and excited to work here, but I want to talk about, uh, more time off and a parking pass.

And when you give them power to say no, yeah, we can't really do the parking pass, actually can unlock a yes on the thing you care about more. And then, so that's like kind of phase one. Phase two is that each side's narrative can be that they made concessions. They didn't get the parking pass, but we were able to come up on the paid time off they asked for.

So that's an example of how this can play out. Here's another way to do it. If you have a single issue, split the issue into two. Uh, the NFL did this. So if there's any football fans, uh, the NFL did this. This was several years ago. They had a major, major contract and with the players and the issue was about the revenue share.

So this feels totally close to home for so many of us. [00:32:00] Uh, Particularly in our CBA negotiations, but could be true for, uh, compensation packages as well. And so they're talking about the revenue share and it was a single issue for a while. Just what's the revenue split? What's the revenue split? Who gets what?

And then I don't remember who initiated this breakdown, but they actually decided to break the revenue into three different buckets. It was something like, here's the revenue from the media. Agreement, the broadcasting agreements. Here's the revenue from ticket sales. And I don't remember the third one, if it's merch or something else.

But, um, so they split revenue into these three different buckets. And then they were able to talk about the revenue share among these different pieces. And that actually dislodged what otherwise was becoming a stalemate and helped them get to an agreement that all, uh, parties involved were happy with.

So, avoid negotiating over a single issue. One more example. If you were a parent watching this, you already probably do this one very, very well. So, tell me, [00:33:00] moms and dads, I'm not a parent, so you tell me, but I definitely remember my parents doing this. If there is one toy for the children to play with, but both say they want to play with it, How do you handle it?

One toy, you split it into two. You get it now, child two gets it later, right? Like you split it into two. So just one more example for you to see that so many of you are already probably employing a strategy like this. Maybe you didn't even know it. Number five, Don't hope a certain topic doesn't come up.

Instead, prepare for that hard conversation. I've been guilty of this before too, but so many people are guilty of this. Like, hope is a not a strategy. Hope is a bad strategy, I guess, maybe I should say. Just hoping something doesn't happen or something doesn't come up. Um, I say this all the time when we're talking about, uh, ticket sales too, like, it's not just spray and pray the postcard, like you mail the postcard or the solicitation to everybody in your database and just hope people respond.

Like that's a really [00:34:00] bad, ineffective strategy. So hope, don't do it. Instead, prepare, prepare for that hard conversation. So for example, if you don't want them to ask, If you're interviewing anywhere else, don't just like hope they don't bring it up, fear the question, don't do that, instead have a game plan, figure out what are you going to say if they bring it up.

If you, another example, if you don't want them to ask, What do you think the salary should be then? Be ready to have an answer because a lot of times they do make you go first, so be ready. And by the way, sidebar, bonus, bonus tip 5. 5 right here. If they do ask you to go first on what you think the salary should be, a lot more people are publishing their salaries, which is great.

But, um, if they do ask you that question, actually, the research says it's beneficial to go first because you can anchor high. Whoever goes first sets the anchor number, whether it's high or low. So if you go first, you can anchor high. Okay. That's a bonus tip. Um, really what you need to do, the theme of all of this is think through [00:35:00] what could they ask that will put me in a more defensive position and then prepare an honest answer to that that also keeps you as a strong candidate.

So again, this is in the bucket of prepare. So for me, Here is one that I used to get a lot. I don't get it so much anymore, but I used to get it a lot. And it was, what was the budget of the symphony you ran? Which I used to hate and fear that question. I said in part one, you know, people love to put us in a box.

And I have experience at organizations of all sizes. I've managed tens of millions of dollars at major institutions, but the orchestra I ran didn't have as many zeros in it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now I don't think the number of zeros in the budget fundamentally changes the work that needs to be done.

But now I have an answer to that effect. So. I used to say, you know, only 10 percent of orchestras have a budget, annual budget of 2 million or greater, only 10%. [00:36:00] And I've managed tens of millions of dollars at the Seattle Opera and the Bumbershoot Music and Arts Festival. I grew California Symphony into that 2 million top 10 percent mark.

But to me, I would say more than how many zeros in the budget, Having worked at organizations of all sizes, to me, it's really more about managing the people that lead to that growth and deliver those budget results. And now what I've done is I've pivoted to a topic I want to talk about. I love talking about managing people and growing the team and all of that kind of thing.

And, um, uh, For me, perfect or imperfect, that was me at least preparing for that kind of answer. So I hope that helps just, uh, illuminate for you, uh, how to not just fear a topic, but prepare for it. Number six, they're not out to get you. So it's really interesting. So many people say, Aubrey, what if they reneged the offer or I'm afraid to negotiate because I'm afraid they won't [00:37:00] like me and I got to come into this role.

It's not like that. So a couple things, one, they're not going to renege the offer because you're negotiating. And if they do, you don't want to work for them. Like we want strong negotiators at our organization. Once the offer comes, what I want to say right now is once the offer comes, there's a real power dynamic shift in our favor as a candidate.

They like you. That's important. You got the offer. They like you, right? So if they are not able to respond quickly, sometimes people are like, Oh my gosh, are they ghosting me? What's happening? Like, calm down. It's okay. If they're not able to give you what you want, you went for it. You negotiated there. It's a no, no, no, no, no, no.

We can't do these things. Nothing lost. You tried nothing lost. And it's just, That you are not the only concern they have in life. It's just the facts. So, but I think that's hard when we're in it and we feel like, you know, the center of the story and, Oh my God, they took, they took several days. I haven't heard back.

Maybe, maybe they're going to renege. [00:38:00] It's not that it's just that there's other things going on. So you've got to offer it. They like you, they are not out to get you. And we have to remember that. Number seven, companies don't negotiate, people negotiate. This is true for fundraising too. For anybody who's ever heard, like.

People don't give to organizations. People don't give to companies. People give to people. Same kind of concept. Companies don't negotiate. People negotiate. And this is good advice for all negotiations, contracts, CBAs, anything, not just job offers. Um, but for the job offer example, knowing who you're negotiating with actually makes a really big difference.

So, for example, negotiating with your future boss. is very different than negotiating with the HR person. This plays out in different ways, depending on the organization. You could be negotiating the offer with your boss, your future boss. It could be negotiating with the HR person. It could be with the recruiter if you're going through a search firm.

Um, so to parse this out a little more, if it's the HR person, [00:39:00] It might be, Deepak Malhotra says, it might be okay if the HR person gets slightly annoyed. Not pissed off because you were an ass, okay, don't hear me saying that, but slightly annoyed. Because they're not the one you have to work most closely with, right?

You see what I'm saying? Maybe the HR person doesn't want to break the mold. Like they're trying to follow particle. They're trying to stick to the script that they've been taught, you know, for so many offers they've done. But your boss, on the other hand, they might want to go to bat for you. They might want to make the case for getting you what you're asking for.

So it's just really important to know who you're talking to. And we don't, we don't always get to call those shots. We don't always get to control that, of course, but just to know who's on the other side, like maybe you do get to push a little harder with this person is what I'm trying to say. So.

Companies don't negotiate, people negotiate. Okay, number eight, last one. Shoot for an 11 out of 10. This is just good general life advice, not just negotiation [00:40:00] advice. Imagine that the person with whom you're negotiating is going to rate you on a scale of one to 10 on how much they want to work with you in the future.

And you don't want a nine. You don't even want a 10. You want through the negotiation process for them to say, wow, I really want to work with this person badly. By the way you've negotiated. I can think of some recent CBA collective bargaining negotiations where each party would probably not rate the other as an 11 out of 10.

You know what I'm saying? But I can think of some where they would. They absolutely would. And so I'm trying to say like, that's possible. It is possible to come out and be like, wow, I actually would rate the other person or the other side as an 10. We want that. That is definitely true for our individual negotiations as well.

And even if you improve your offer, it is completely possible that they come away liking you more than they did before, which of [00:41:00] course just sets up the relationship, the working relationship you're going to have. And just to put a finer point on this, like too many people think that if you negotiate, it will weaken your position as the new hire.

And it's just the opposite. The data says it is how you negotiate that can strengthen your reputation coming in. Um, and an example, one more example I want to give on this is I mentioned in part one, uh, reading about lean in and Sheryl Sandberg. And I mentioned that book is not perfect. There are definitely some flaws, but this example and story she told really stuck with me.

She was writing about her negotiation with Mark Zuckerberg when he was bringing her to Facebook. And. He was pushing back, the story goes, and she shared that it went something like this, that she finally said to him, Mark, this is the only time we are on opposite sides of the table. The only time. After this, don't you [00:42:00] want somebody who can negotiate on the same side of the table as you?

We get to be on the same side forever more after this. And that was enough to dislodge whatever his sticking point was and say, right, I do want a baller negotiator on my team. So as we know, they went to, came to work together for another decade after that. So, uh, I always thought about that story and thought like, if I ever get pushed back for negotiating a job offer, especially in a CEO role, something like that is what I would say.

Don't you want a strong negotiator on your side? But honestly, I have to say nobody has pushed back. Like ever. I have had multiple CEO job offers at this point, and I have never ever been penalized for negotiating or never ever had to defend myself for negotiating. So it's just expected. And, uh, that's my last call to action to say, so do it and do it in a way that you're proud of it and proud of how you showed up and are respected on the other side.[00:43:00] 

Again, there's so many more tips linked in the videos, in the workbook, uh, and in Deepak Malhotra's book, I mentioned Negotiating the Impossible. But for now, we gotta move on. So, okay. Pull up your vision draft. If you did the vision draft from part one, pull up that statement, that exercise that we worked through together.

What are some things that make you smile when you think about that future? future vision.[00:44:00] 

Here's what's next. Take that year one vision and now I have some new questions for you to go a little deeper. You need to ask yourself right now, what parts of that vision are already present in your life, even if a little bit? In what ways is this vision statement already true for you? So for example, don't laugh at me, you guys, but sharing a bit of my own.

A few years back, I did an exercise like this. And for me, I had identified that I wanted to be more like Brene Brown or Adam Grant and be able to have a full time job. But also be able to go out and speak and teach and even write. And that is a lot of what I'm doing now. But at the time it [00:45:00] felt like just so far out of reach.

Then I realized through this prompt that there were little tiny glimmers of that. There were similar activities I was doing just on a small scale, similar to those people that I admired. And, you know, back in the day, it was, you know, the talk I gave at the local library. Or I had presented at a couple of conferences and I was like, right, I do have glimmers of that big dream already presence and present in my life.

And it just made me realize that those little bits that have already manifested, like it totally set me on a path to doing all of that on a bigger scale today. So what are those parts of your vision that are already present in your life, even as just that little glimmer or that little tiny seed of what could be in that big vision?

So, if you were watching this on replay, hit pause for a moment, take some time. If you're live, I'm just trying to give you some time now on the fly to [00:46:00] think in real time, but go back and watch if you need some more time. Next question. From that vision, what are your knowns and your unknowns? Take a moment to summarize or list these out.

So, your knowns could be The things that are must have, like you have clarity. These are the must have things I got to have in this vision. The knowns could also be and or, um, things, you know, the answers to some elements of that vision where you're like, I know this has to happen, or I know the answer to that, uh, and, or also the knowns can be things you can control.

Maybe this isn't present yet in my life, but I can control whether or not that becomes present. So all of those things, those are. The, the knowns. So write that down. And then the unknowns are just like it sounds. The elements that are uncertain to you at this moment. Identify those. Knowns and unknowns.

Across all kinds of categories. Do this for location. Do [00:47:00] this for finances. the kind of projects you want to be working on, uh, the kind of people you want to be working with, the results you want to see that you wrote about in this vision, your lifestyle, all those different categories, the knowns, the unknowns.

Take a moment, do it now. If you're watching the replay, hit pause, give yourself a second.

And next, what is your zone of excellence versus your zone of genius? Some of you may be familiar with this concept already. For some of you, it might be new, and either way, that's okay. So the zone of excellence, to define it, is these are the activities that you do extremely well. Like you know this about yourself already, and they're the type of activities you know you can get paid for doing that work.

And this is important because What we do well is not, is not automatically the same as what we want or what will fulfill us. [00:48:00] You understand what I'm saying? Experts say that this zone of excellence can even be dangerous. Like, that feels a little loaded, but they say it can be dangerous because the zone of excellence is often what prevents us from fully taking the leap into our zone of genius.

That's how they say it. experts, uh, write about this. So it gets very, very easy to fall back on our zone of excellence is what I'm saying. So to everybody who has made a career pivot or wants to make a career pivot, I got to say like half of the changing the narrative team at this point has made a career pivot and several uplevel program alums have made career pivots.

The people who've done that are the people who did not fall prey. to the zone of excellence. So that is so good. You did not fall into that trap. You broke out of the zone of excellence. So by contrast, then what is the zone of genius? The zone of genius is the activities that you are uniquely suited to.

They are the activities that draw upon, you know, the way you're [00:49:00] wired, your special gifts, your unique strengths. And, uh, to give my own example, for me, I realized this a few years ago, marketing is my zone of excellence, not my zone of genius. I was making money doing that. People tell me I'm good at marketing.

And a big realization for me was, I don't want to be a CMO. I want to be a CEO. And that is true to this day. And I also realized hand in hand with that a few years ago, what I just said is not true for everybody. Some people, of course, want to be head of marketing and that's a okay. And so just realizing like, wow, no, that is unique to me.

Uh, And definitely not universally true. That is so important and powerful as we're trying to figure out the how or the what, what kind of, the trajectories we're trying to create for ourselves. And so, um, not to be cheesy, but we are all wired differently and we are all unique, right? And so actually think about that because it just brings so much clarity to this exercise.

So hopefully [00:50:00] I've taken enough time where you can write down your zone of excellence versus your zone of genius. And just a little bit more on this to help parse it out for yourself. And then we're going to wrap up for today. Guy Hendricks is the author of The Big Leap. He writes about this phenomenon of zone of excellence versus zone of genius.

And he says, liberating and expressing your natural genius is your ultimate path to success and life satisfaction. That's why it's so important that you take the moment to really try to drill down on this. So a few more questions to try to help stimulate this for you is what is working best when you think about your day to day activities, your job role, job you have now, past jobs you've had, past roles you've had, your daily routines, you think about your social interactions, what's working best for you.

Think about all of those different categories I just said and think about like when during the day Whether current or in the past, when are you in that [00:51:00] zone of excellence versus zone of genius? Like, think through it. If you've got to pull up your calendar and think through, like, oh yeah, that was excellence, that was genius.

Another way to talk about genius might be, like, if you've heard of flow state. Like, when do you really, like, you're in the work but you lose track of time kind of a thing. Like, that's a really big indicator that that's your zone of genius. Um, you can also think through what Activities or responsibilities from your past, were in your zone of genius, but maybe they're latent now.

Maybe it's not something that's, uh, required of you today. So think about that. Think about what are those strengths, how can you use them more? That's a real good zone of genius question. So. Pause if you need more time. Again, if you're watching this on replay later, hit pause, really take the time you need.

If you're watching live, go back, spend some time on it because the clarity it brings is so helpful. And like I said, just be an observer of yourself this week, noting when your work falls into either of [00:52:00] these categories, zone of excellence or genius, or here's the third one we haven't said yet. Zone of competence.

Which is pretty neutral. I think all of us at some point in our jobs have a zone of competence. Like our jobs are rarely, rarely 100 percent fulfilling all day, every day. So to be fair, there could be a zone of competence in there, which is pretty neutral.

All right. That brings us to the close of part two of this three part training. Excellent job. If you really engaged with this content, and I hope you did, I hope you were able to do that, you are now another step closer to diving into everything they didn't teach you about how to be a leader in arts administration in this field of arts management.

And please, if you are feeling Like there's more reflection that you need to do. If the flow is still flowing, keep going. Don't let me stop you. So backtrack, maybe even [00:53:00] go back to your notes in the workbook from part one, from today's work, this time is yours. This training is for you. So truly hit pause if you need, and I'll be right here waiting for you when you're ready.

And there's more coming next episode. When part three of this training drops, we're going to get into even more of the seven research backed skills to growing your leadership and getting ahead in this field. And here's the thing, hearing the research is not the same. As applying the research. I can't say this enough.

I've said it before. I'll say it again. Hearing the research, knowing the research is not the same as applying it. I shared in part one, a time where I did know the research. I had read it. I had consumed it and I didn't apply it. And it cost me. So if you are the type of person who has ideas and goals, but you can't seem to get the green light right now, or you want to be seen and viewed as a [00:54:00] leader, you want more confidence, money, stability, or fulfillment.

or if you want others around you to do what they're quote unquote supposed to do, whether that's your boss, your board, your artistic director, other people on your team, you want them to do what they're supposed to do, or you're the type of person who wants others on your team to care about the organization, the mission, the work as much as you do, If you want better boundaries, less stress, more energy, if you were the type of person who wants any of those things, then Part 3 is definitely for you.

If you didn't get a chance to download the workbook, don't forget, it's there for you. AubreyBergauer. com slash 40, that's 4 0 for episode 40, to go pick it up. And we're gonna bring it home next episode, which feels appropriate as we head into the final stretch of the year and bringing this year home as well.

So I can't wait to do this with you as we wrap it up. Then see you soon.[00:55:00] 

That's all for today, folks. Thanks so much for listening. If you like what you heard here, hit that button to follow and subscribe to this podcast. And if you've learned something or gotten value from this, please take two seconds to leave a quick one tap rating or review and return to all of you one more time.

Thanks again. See you next time on the Offstage Mic. The Offstage Mic is produced by me, Aubrey Bergauer, and Erin Allen. The show is edited by Novo Music, an audio production company of all women, audio engineers, and musicians. Our theme music is by Alex Sproul. Additional podcast support this season comes from Jeremy Cuebas, Kelle Stedman, other members of the Changing the Narrative team, and Social Media Brand Management by Classical Content.

This is a production of Changing the Narrative. 

[00:55:59] Novo Music: And we're [00:56:00] back. Today on Top Tunes, the music production Is it just me or does this sound terrible? Wait, I think I heard of someone who might be able to help us. There's this company called Novo Music. They provide across the board audio solutions from recording repair to audio editing to original music and sound design and beyond.

Well, what are we waiting for? Today on Top Tunes, the music production Now that's better. Novo Music. Conducting your creative vision. Find out more. At NovoMusic. co.