Transcript

[00:00:00] Aubrey Bergauer: Hello and welcome to the Offstage Mic. We are taking a break from the Success Series we've been bringing to you over the past several episodes. I have loved hearing from so many of you how these stories are really resonating. And we have a few more of these coming, so don't worry, we're coming back to it.

But for now, today, we are talking about a topic that is necessary for your success. Yet. At the same time, it is just about never discussed in arts management, I don't think. So to set this up, I have a story to share. I'm recording right now from Pau, France. If you've been following along on Instagram, you've seen my travels.

And coming here, particularly to Pau, I realized is a bit of a come full circle moment. So Pau is where my book manuscript was first turned in almost exactly two years ago [00:01:00] to the day. So there's sort of two things at play here. One is just, wow, memories. I didn't think I would be here. I didn't think I'd be back here.

That's a whole other story. Um, but really part two of this thought is just these memories are so relevant to today's episode which is kind of a play on the saying fake it till you make it. Okay, so that's where I'm going with this. So the day I submitted the manuscript again two years ago from this smallish city in France, I cried.

I remember it was November 1st, 2022 and You would think maybe I'd feel pride or accomplishment, and I had just finished this massive first draft, and I did feel some of those feelings for sure, but I was kind of surprised at the time, because the predominant emotion was not pride and accomplishment. The predominant emotion at the time was feeling vulnerable, I would say.

And I remember thinking that, and I [00:02:00] even said to my editor and agent at the time as I was submitting the manuscript, I feel so vulnerable. I hope I don't get canceled, like seriously some fear around that. And those were the only words I had at the time to describe what I was feeling and experiencing.

And I kind of shoved it down, you know, move on at the moment. And then it happened again a few times throughout the editing process. And eventually I realized, I think I may have imposter syndrome. So there's a whole other topic or episode on this that we can dive into because I definitely went down the research rabbit hole and got a whole bunch to share with you on that.

So we'll do that someday. But for now, bringing it back to this episode, this topic, I realized to put other words to it now that I felt like a bit like a fish out of water. Like, I'm not an author. At least at the time, two years ago, that was what was running through my head. And it felt like I was putting myself out there in a way that was [00:03:00] different than I had before.

It was different than the blog articles I'd written in the past. It definitely meant showing up in a different way than I was used to or comfortable with. And I realized, here's yet one more way to put words to this, I realized it was a moment where I was absolutely going to have to fake being an author until I became it.

Fake it till you make it, right? And I did. So fast forward two years ago to today, and one of the main reasons I am here in Europe right now is because of the book. So the Rotterdam Philharmonic brought me out to do my run at like, Like a business book talk. They invited their whole staff plus all the other orchestras and ensembles from across the Netherlands.

So we had in the room Royal Concertgebouw and the Rotterdam Philharmonic, for sure those two were the big fish. There were other ensembles, local theater [00:04:00] company, chamber music, several others as well. And like, here's the thing, I didn't even have to bring copies of the book to sign or sell because so many of them had copies already.

I don't even know how to explain. That hasn't, that just doesn't happen on all these different book stops I've done. And when I was writing two years ago and submitting that draft, I definitely did not or could not have even imagined that this really wonderful full circle moment would be happening right now.

But here we are. And like, hello, of course I'm an author. And I did not get canceled. And that is exactly what this episode is about. Knowing who you are as a leader, so much so that it impacts your work and the people you work with, and there is a name for this, it is called presence.

And so often in [00:05:00] arts administration, we talk about revenue. We talk about audiences. We talk about our communities at our orchestras, operas, theaters. chamber ensembles, you name it. But what about the internal work we need to do with ourselves, in ourselves, to fully show up to our work? You know, you have to show up for yourself before you can show up properly for all of those other folks who rely on you, who trust you, who need to be inspired by you.

And on and on and on. So today I am going to be pulling from some research by Amy Cuddy. She is a Harvard professor and author of the book Presence. And her work has changed a lot of people's lives, including mine, I would say. So we're going to talk about how your own understanding of yourself comes off to your team members, the artists you work with, your board, how your presence can be a deciding factor in basically your efficacy as a leader, [00:06:00] and how sometimes, as Cuddy says, You just have to, quote, fake it till you become it.

That was certainly the case with me. I am so excited for this topic. I hope it resonates with you and helps you the way it has helped me. So let's get to it. I'm Aubrey Bergauer and welcome to my podcast. I'm known in the arts world for being customer centric, data obsessed, and for growing revenue. The arts are my vehicle to make the change I want to see in this world, like creating places of belonging, pursuing justice.

Gender and racial equality, developing high performing teams and leaders, and leveraging technology to elevate our work. I've been called the Steve Jobs of classical music and the Sheryl Sandberg of the symphony. I've held off stage roles managing millions of dollars in revenue at major institutions, been chief executive of an orchestra where we doubled the size of the audience and nearly quadrupled the donor base.

And now I'm here to help you achieve that same [00:07:00] kind of success. In this podcast, we are sorting through data and research. Inside and outside the arts, applying those findings to our work in arts management and bringing in some extra voices along the way, all to build the vibrant future we know is possible for our institutions and for ourselves as offstage administrators and leaders.

You're listening to The Offstage Mic.

Hi everyone, Aubrey Bergauer here. Before we Before we dive into today's episode, I want to tell you about Annual Fund Toolkit. If you're a non profit looking to revolutionize your fundraising strategies, you need to know about Annual Fund Toolkit. They're not just another consulting firm. They're specialists in transforming annual funds through data driven donor engagement What sets Annual Fund Toolkit apart is their laser focus on two critical challenges, improving donor retention and growing the major gifts pipeline.

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That's www.annualfundtoolkit.com. Trust me, your donors and your mission will. Thank you. Now let's dive into today's episode.

[00:09:28] Amy Cuddy: So I wanna start by, um, offering you a free no tech life hack. Um, and all it requires of you is this, that you change your posture. for two minutes. But before I give it away, I want to ask you to right now do a little audit. 

[00:09:44] Aubrey Bergauer: This is social psychologist and Harvard professor Amy Cuddy. You may have seen her TED talk.

The title is Your Body Language May Shape Who You Are. And even if you don't know it by that title, chances are high that you may have seen this TED talk because [00:10:00] this is the second most watched TED talk ever. Most people associate Amy Cuddy and her talk with doing the Superman pose in the bathroom. You know, maybe you've heard about this before an important interview or something like that, a big meeting, going to the bathroom and have the Superman pose for two minutes.

And that helps you, uh, feel more prepared, changes, I think, some of the chemical reactions in your body, that type of thing. So if you've heard of that or are familiar with that, that's Amy Cuddy's work. But overall, in her presentation, what she's talking about is her research on how the body and mind interact when we feel powerful.

[00:10:39] Amy Cuddy: And what are nonverbal expressions of power and dominance? Well, this is what they are. So in the animal kingdom, they are about expanding. So you make yourself big, you stretch out, you take up space. You're basically expanding. Opening up. It's about opening up. And humans do the same thing. So they do this both when they, when they have power [00:11:00] sort of chronically, and also when they're feeling powerful in the moment.

[00:11:04] Aubrey Bergauer: So we've all heard that phrase, mind over matter, right? If you tell yourself, I will win, say that to yourself mentally. It is a way to sort of trick yourself into performing better. Usually this happens a lot with sports athletes at a game. Definitely, sometimes it happens for artists performing too, you know, you tell yourself, you visualize what it's going to look like to kick the field goal, you visualize what it's going to look like to play the passage before you go on stage, right?

That is a way to mentally trick yourself into performing better. But what Amy Cuddy is saying in this talk actually flips that concept around. 

[00:11:44] Amy Cuddy: For example, um, We smile when we feel happy, but also when we're forced to smile by holding a pen in our teeth like this. It makes us feel happy. So it goes both ways.

When it comes to power, it also goes both ways. [00:12:00] So when you feel powerful, you're more likely to do this, but it's also possible that when you pretend to be powerful, you are more likely to actually feel powerful. So it seems that our non verbals do govern how we think and feel about ourselves. So it's not just others, but it's also ourselves.

Also, our bodies change our minds. 

[00:12:21] Aubrey Bergauer: What she's talking about is this idea of presence. It goes both ways, which as I mentioned, just is not discussed very much in our world of arts management. Sometimes we talk about executive presence, and that's maybe something in the larger business world. But Let's back up.

What is presence? First of all, how do we define it? A lot of people think of presence as being mindful or being in the moment, and that is not wrong for sure. But when it comes to leadership, it's a little bit different than that. So according to Amy Cuddy, presence is what emerges when we feel [00:13:00] personally powerful, which allows us to be attuned to our most sincere selves.

She says it is about being able to to comfortably express our truest thoughts, our truest feelings, values, and potential. And being aware of and attuned to all of those things about ourselves. So in other words, I guess we could say that it's really self awareness. And she says all of this stems from, and this is important, it stems from believing and trusting yourself.

So, this is where I just think in the arts, I mean for any job, but of course for what we do in arts management, this is so important, believing in and trusting yourself. Our whole lives, especially if we were trained as artists, we're often taught to trust others. Somebody else, a teacher usually, tells us how we're doing, gives us that feedback that's part of the process of learning and growing, but time to look [00:14:00] inward.

Because we're grown folks now. And so not only are you aware and attuned, but you have this knowing about you. You trust in yourself and you trust what you know about yourself. This is so empowering, even just to say these words right now, trust yourself, know yourself, and believe in that. So this is where the confidence comes in.

So presence sometimes gets confused with confidence. Okay. They're not the same. They're definitely related, but not identical. So when we believe in and trust in ourselves, believe in and trust in our own beliefs, our value system, what happens is we come across as confident and confidence is the manifestation of knowing ourselves and being comfortable with ourselves.

So here's a big caveat. Notice, I have not said the word extroverted here, okay? What I'm talking about, and sometimes this is where it's like executive presence and fill the stage and sometimes that gets confused with extroversion and all of that. No, that's not what [00:15:00] I'm saying. What I'm talking about is what you give off, your vibe, if you will, when you are leading and showing up, not how many people you interact with or how often or how extroverted you are, okay?

So back to leadership presence. When we have presence, we also come across not just as confident, but we come across as enthusiastic, as comfortable, and as authentic. And all of those traits are what make people want to trust you, believe in you, and put their confidence in you. And this sounds like what?

Leadership. We talk in the Up Level course about a definition of leadership is actually a set of feelings and followers. And so that is exactly what we're saying here. When others want to trust you, when others want to believe in you and put their confidence in you, that is actually a better reflection and definition of leadership.

Okay, so all of this is tied together in this idea of presence. And according to Amy Cuddy, [00:16:00] 1. The more and more present and authentic we are, the more convincing we are. So this is like, I don't know, a cycle that continues or something that builds right on itself. And 2. She says the idea of presence or this idea of self assured enthusiasm.

3. She is an impressively useful indicator of success. So here's a case study to back this up. Amy and her team analyzed 185 videos of venture capital presentations. And these were people who were making a pitch to get funding for their companies. And the study looked at both the verbal and nonverbal behavior of these people making their pitch.

As I'm saying this, I'm just thinking of like fundraising pitch. I mean, it literally is a fundraising pitch. It's just for a company. So I'm thinking about fundraising pitches. That's for our own organizations too, as I'm saying these words, but back to the case study, the strongest predictor of who got the money, who actually was awarded the money, their pitch was successful, was not the person's [00:17:00] credentials or the content of the actual pitch.

How much do we obsess over what is the content of our pitch of our ask? Not relevant in this study or not an indicator. The strongest predictors of who got the money were these traits,

confidence, comfort level, and passion. Enthusiasm, AKA, their presence. So those who succeeded in these fundraising pitches, these presentations. Those who succeeded did not spend their precious moments in the spotlight worried about how they were doing or what others thought of them. Oh my gosh, in this like donor analogy, how many times, I'm guilty of this too, how many times we've been with a donor trying to ask for money and we're so worried about what do they think of us.

Or all the time I get the question, Aubrey, what does our core audience think? What are our major donors think? Not that that doesn't matter at all, but we tend to over index on this. And that is absolutely true for our leadership as well. So full [00:18:00] disclosure, I am still working on this all the time for sure.

And You know, it's no secret I want to run a major institution someday, and I've said this a lot, I've talked about this a lot over the years, and I used to care so much about what they thought others, other people in the field, board members, people making hiring decisions. Because they were the ones evaluating me and are the ones making those hiring decisions still.

And more and more though, as I slowly get better at this, slowly become more comfortable with who I am and put that out there, the more I'm seeing how it really does manifest in the way Cuddy describes, because now today I'm getting more of those board members calling, more of those organizations becoming clients, more recruiters reaching out and.

I just thought it was very counterintuitive for a long time, but it feels great because, not just because it's some sort of external validation, it's great because it's all happening as I'm being [00:19:00] me. And the better I get at being me and showing up as myself is way more effortless and way less stressful than the old way, because I used to just constantly worry about what do they think.

And. Thanks. All of this actually helped me dream bigger, too, and helped me bring clarity to what I want for my own career and for my organization, my business now, organization I lead someday, not what somebody else wants or what I think somebody else wants, like, just what an exhausting. Rabbit hole, right?

And I used to think I could not do the work I'm doing now and go back to lead an organization, even the word go back, right? Like that feels so limiting as I say it, going back, right? Nobody, I don't want to go back to anything. I don't want to go backwards at all. The dream for me, I realized a year or so ago, is to lead and manage a major orchestra, have boots on the ground, being, doing the work with the team and [00:20:00] simultaneously build out my business so that we then have the vehicle to share our findings back into the world, teaching and training others as we go.

And I just feel so much more comfortable and clear, present, if you will. on what that will take from me and the orchestra or arts organization I partnered with and also just brought a lot of clarity to me to say no when opportunities that don't match that vision or that dream come up. So Wearing my heart on my sleeve a little bit here, but presence and working on this idea of presence, if I had to wrap it up, I would say it's liberating because it's just finding a way to show up as ourself in the world the way we're most comfortable and that leads to all these other.

benefits in our own leadership. So I am all in on it now. Okay. I think this is a good time to take a little break coming up. We're going to talk [00:21:00] about three specific ways presence can play out to drive your approach to leadership to the next level. Be right back.

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Okay. So Amy Cuddy lays out three ways presents can play out in leadership. Number one. We mentioned this briefly before, but being seen as trustworthy, which obviously this matters a lot. I talk about this in my book and one of the later chapters on company culture, company values, and specifically the idea of vulnerability based trust.

That's all in there. And especially also with the, uh, research behind building high [00:24:00] performing teams and leaders. So again, these things tend to be pretty interrelated in many ways. But to put a finer point on this, Researcher Marcus Buckingham and author, uh, and former head of people at Google, Laszlo Bock, have both done studies to look at the most engaged teams.

And they found that by far the best predictor of engagement levels, meaning truly high performance, what kind of work they delivered, the quality of the work, all of those things that really matter, the best indicator of engagement levels was whether or not the team members trusted their team leader. A team member, to put a data point behind it, is 12 times more likely to be fully engaged if they trust their team leader.

12. And Amy Cuddy, to bring it back to her research, she talks about the fact that when we meet somebody new, we quickly answer two questions. This is all of us, it's human nature, we [00:25:00] quickly answer two questions in our mind when we meet somebody new. One, can I trust this person? And two, can I respect this person?

In her research, she and her colleagues refer to these dimensions as warmth, And competence. Can I trust this person? That's warmth. Can I respect this person? That's competence. So here's where it gets even more interesting. The research showed that we as humans, on the whole, we don't value those two traits equally.

First, we judge warmth or trustworthiness, which we consider to be the more important of the two. So humans on the whole, we all do this. We judge trustworthiness above all else as we're making these like mental snap judgment decisions, evaluations, when we meet somebody new. Why? Why do we prioritize warmth over competence?

Because, from an evolutionary standpoint, as Cuddy says, It is [00:26:00] more crucial to our survival to know whether a person deserves our trust. This makes sense, especially when we're thinking about survival mode, right? So we do value people who are capable, competent, especially in circumstances where that trait is necessary.

Of course, that makes a lot of sense, but the research show we only notice that competence after we've judged their trustworthiness. So the big lesson here is that as Amy puts it, quote, trust is the conduit of influence and the only way to establish real trust is by being present. Okay. So if that's way number one, presence can play out in leadership.

Here is number two. The second way presence plays out in leadership is in Feeling powerful. Okay. So we talked about this before. Let's break it down a little more. This is not about power over others. Okay. That's not that dynamic. We're talking about our personal power. So this applies [00:27:00] no matter your role title, where you sit on the org chart, like personal power.

Okay. Most of the time, especially in nonprofit leadership, I'd say, when we talk about power and empowerment, we talk about empowering others. And of course that matters, that matters a lot. But feeling empowered in ourselves and by ourselves is also absolutely essential when we talk about developing ourselves as leaders.

Amy Cuddy says, the feeling that arises from our personal power is not the desire to have control. It's the effortless feeling of being in control, lucid, calm, and not dependent on the behavior of others. How good does that sound? Not dependent on the behavior of others, that effortless feeling of being in control.

Here she is talking about what that looks like on a biological and chemical level during her TED talk. 

[00:27:55] Amy Cuddy: So what we find is that, um, uh, [00:28:00] high power alpha males in primate hierarchies have high testosterone and low cortisol. And, um, Powerful and effective leaders also have high testosterone and low cortisol.

So what does that mean? When do you think about power? People tended to think only about testosterone because that was about dominance, but really power is also about how you react to stress. So do you want the high power leader? That's dominant, high on testosterone, but it's really stress reactive?

Probably not, right? You want the person who's powerful and assertive and dominant, but not very stress reactive. The person who's laid back. 

[00:28:36] Aubrey Bergauer: Oh, I love that. It just makes you want to take a deep breath, a deep exhale. I don't know about you, but the idea of something in this very challenging business.

Feeling effortless feels so good, and while we are absolutely dependent on our supervisor and their behavior, and those with more seniority and power than us, [00:29:00] that's just a huge factor in our daily happiness, I love that there is still personal power we can claim, regardless of who else we work with.

Okay. So, number three, the third way presence can play out in our leadership, speaking with presence. Powerful people initiate speech more often and they talk more overall. This is what so many research studies have shown. They also make more eye contact while they're speaking than people with less power do.

So when we feel powerful, we tend to speak more slowly, we take up more time, we don't rush, we are not afraid to pause. We feel entitled in all the good ways that word can mean. We feel entitled to the time we are using. People who speak slowly have a higher chance of being heard clearly and being understood.

And when you speak slowly, you are [00:30:00] indicating that you're not concerned about being interrupted. So, okay, I am a fast talker normally, so this idea of take space with your words, I have really worked on it for multiple years, and it is both important as a leader to not just Take space, as we're talking about right here, but it is also important to make space.

This is literally a guideline in the Changing the Narrative community. You have to take space and make space. And that balance is essential to being well rounded, of course, but also, sometimes there's a Between the two, make space, take space, sometimes taking space is the harder one to do, especially this idea of the slowing down part of it.

So how do we work on it? How do we become better at being present? Okay, this comes all the way back to the top. Physical behavior drives it. Presence. [00:31:00] So going back to Amy Cuddy's research, she says, we train ourselves to be better by starting with physical behavior. It taps into that more primal part of our brain, as we talked about, and this is the fake it till you become it.

You train your body. And your thoughts will follow. This is proven. And here's why. It goes right back to the TED Talk. This is why it works when we stand in the Superman pose for two minutes in the bathroom before we go into the interview. Like, physically, we are taking space. It's our physical behavior.

Train your body. Your thoughts will follow. So, Amy has done multiple research studies to back this up. In one study, she and her colleagues brought a group of people into the lab and part of the group did these what are called high power poses. The Superman stance, standing up very tall, broadening their shoulders, taking up space with their bodies.

The other part of the group did low [00:32:00] power poses. hunching over, shoulders forward, you know, kind of hugging, holding themselves, not taking up a lot of space. Okay. Then, they all sat through a mock job interview. It was five minutes long, it was recorded on tape, and they're being judged on everything they say as, as interviews go.

So the judges in this study were trained to be stone faced. Give no nonverbal feedback, nonverbal cues, which also raises cortisol levels. If we're not getting nonverbal cues from people we're talking to, communicating with, it raises cortisol levels. Okay, so here's Amy talking about how this played out.

[00:32:42] Amy Cuddy: We then have these coders look at these tapes, four of them. They're blind to the hypothesis, they're blind to the conditions, they have no idea who's been posing in what pose, and they, they, they end up. Looking at these sets of tapes and they say, Oh, we want to hire these people, all the high power posers.

We [00:33:00] don't want to hire these people. We also evaluate these people much more positively overall, but what's driving it. It's not about the content of the speech. It's about the presence that they're bringing to the speech. We also, because we rate them on all these variables related to sort of competence, like how well structured is the speech?

How good is it? What are their qualifications? No effect on those things. This is what's affected. These kinds of things. People are bringing their true selves, basically. They're bringing themselves. They bring their ideas, but as themselves. 

[00:33:30] Aubrey Bergauer: Our physical behavior really does drive mental results. So how can we start right now?

How do we use our physical behavior to drive our presence? The best thing we can do is take up space. Easy enough. Simple enough. We talked about it. Making space. Taking space with our words. But yes, definitely do it physically too. Wherever you are right now, do it physically first. That next meeting, sit up taller.

You know, all those kind of things, like actually do it physically [00:34:00] first. Amy Cuddy says, quote, Expanding your body language through posture, movement, and speech makes you feel more confident and more powerful, less anxious and self absorbed, and generally more positive. So you can practice it before you go into a meeting, even if your next meeting is a Zoom call.

Try taking up more space with how you're sitting. Can you expand a little? Next time when you're in an interview, definitely same thing. Do the Superman stance in the bathroom before the meeting or wherever. Take up more physical space in your chair, shoulders back. As you're waiting in the lobby, you know, stand instead of sit.

It's okay if they offer you a chair, you can stand. We'll get the message and we'll follow suit, even if you're not consciously aware. This is awesome, I think. So next time you present, same thing, or speak in a meeting and you want to exude more confidence, use big gestures. Like literally somebody trained me, when you talk, Aubrey, don't use little T Rex arms.

You need to [00:35:00] spread your arms. You need to make those big gestures. So I've, I've definitely had to work on this and still am, like I said. Avoid hunching. I'm pretty bad at this. I've got generally bad, bad posture. Definitely could never have been a dancer, but all these things are like, you know, something to consciously think about, and I definitely am trying myself, and just remember, you compare all of this with slowing down your speech, and I'll leave you with one more quote from Amy Cuddy on all of this.

You heard the phrase, fake it till you make it, but The most popular line of her talk is what I said at the very beginning of this episode. 

[00:35:38] Amy Cuddy: And so I, I, I want to say to you, don't fake it till you make it. Fake it till you become it. Do it enough until you actually become it and internalize. 

[00:35:47] Aubrey Bergauer: So as we wrap up here, I'll leave you with this.

Practice these things to build your leadership confidence, just like we practiced It's anything else in life we want to get better at. Keep practicing [00:36:00] in small doses. What it's like to comfortably express your true thoughts, your feelings, values. Do those exercises to get more clarity on your purpose, on your values.

Cuddy says that when we see ourselves doing something with courage or competence once, we can then recall that experience the next time we face a similar challenge. This is our kind of rewiring our brains. Our brains love taking mental shortcuts. So, once we've done it once. It is easier for our brain to see ourselves and play the tape and do it again.

And that makes it easier to perform well the next time and the time after that. And so on. So just keep doing you. Show up with presence the best smallest way you know how. Fake it till you become the leader that you know you want to be.

There is a lot you were never taught about navigating a career in arts management. Nobody taught you how to land an administrative role, [00:37:00] ask for a promotion, how to have confidence in job interviews, how to properly sell and brand yourself, how to get buy in for your ideas, how to manage. Up to a boss or a board, or how to motivate the best performance in others on your team.

That all changes starting October 17th. Join me, Aubrey Bergauer, for a new free live virtual event where you will learn the things that are holding you back and equip yourself to take your career in arts management to the next level. No matter where you're at right now, from student, to long timer in the field, to being an artist with an interest in administration, it's called They Never Taught You That, a three part virtual training on how to grow your career in arts management, and it all starts very soon, completely free.

But you do need to save your seat. Register now at www. aubreybergauer. com slash how to grow your career. You can't win a game if you don't know the rules, [00:38:00] right? So go to aubreybergauer. com slash how to grow your career and we'll change that together. Can't wait to see you there.

The Offstage Mic is produced by me, Aubrey Bergauer. And Erin Allen. The show is edited by Novo Music, an audio production company of all women audio engineers and musicians. Our theme music is by Alex Broll. Additional podcast support this season comes from Jeremy Cuebas, Kelle Stedman, other members of the Changing the Narrative team, and social media brand management by Classical Content.

This is a production of Changing the Narrative.

[00:38:47] Novo Music: Today on Top Tunes, the music production Is 

it just me, or does this sound terrible? 

Wait, I think I heard of someone who might be able to help us. There's this company called Novo Music. They provide across the board audio solutions from [00:39:00] recording repair to audio editing to original music and sound design and beyond.

Well, what are we waiting for? 

Today on Top Tunes, the music production Now that's better. Novo Music. Conducting your creative vision. Find out more at novomusic. co