Transcript

[00:00:00] Aubrey Bergauer: Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Offstage Mic. We are back to this success series we've been bringing to you this season. It is all about arts management professionals at all different points in their careers who at some point were challenged or blocked or hitting a wall in some way and how they each found a way to break through that and overcome those challenges.

Stay with us. They are all arts administrators I've had the pleasure of working with in my up level coaching program, and they have been so generous to come on here and share their stories with you. Today, we are talking about the thing probably all of us want more of, and that is confidence. Raise your hand wherever you're at if you've ever wanted more confidence, right?

Or at some point have felt like you wished you had more of it. I'm raising my hand too, for sure. We have all had those moments. And all I can think of right now is that Demi Lovato song, but I'm not mad about it. Anyways, [00:01:00] I've got a great free resource for you that you'll hear about at the end, but for now, let's dive in to all things confidence.

I'm Aubrey Bergauer, and welcome to my podcast. I'm known in the arts world for being customer centric, data obsessed, and for growing revenue. The arts are my vehicle to make the change I want to see in this world, like creating places of belonging, pursuing gender and racial equality. Developing high performing teams and leaders and leveraging technology to elevate our work.

I've been called the Steve Jobs of classical music and the Sheryl Sandberg of the symphony. I've held off stage roles managing millions of dollars in revenue at major institutions, been chief executive of an orchestra where we doubled the size of the audience and nearly quadrupled the donor base. And now I'm here to help you achieve that same kind of success.

In this podcast, we are sorting through data and research inside and outside the arts, applying those findings to our work in arts management, and bringing in some extra [00:02:00] voices along the way, all to build the vibrant future we know is possible for our institutions and for ourselves as offstage administrators and leaders.

You're listening to The Offstage Mic.

Hi everyone. Aubrey Bergauer here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to tell you about Annual Fund Toolkit. If you're a nonprofit looking to revolutionize your fundraising strategies, you need to know about Annual Fund Toolkit. They're not just another consulting firm. They're specialists in transforming annual funds.

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Now, let's dive into today's episode.

Okay, I am joined once again by my co host for this success series, Jeremy Cuevas. Jeremy, you are just crushing these interviews, okay? So I just have to say that. But tell me, who did you talk to this week? 

[00:04:25] Jeremy Cuebas: Oh, thank you. So this week's interview is with Jo Griffin, and Jo is currently a recruitment specialist at the Banff Center, but she was almost not a recruitment specialist at the Banff Center.

Cliffhanger. 

[00:04:37] Aubrey Bergauer: Dun, dun, dun. Okay, what do you mean? Like, tell me more. 

[00:04:42] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah. So Jo saw a promotion that she really wanted, but she almost didn't apply for it. So in this interview, we talk about what made her decide to take that chance, how she pushed through her imposter syndrome and found her confidence. 

[00:04:55] Aubrey Bergauer: Yeah, confidence is hard, I think, and imposter syndrome is just [00:05:00] so, I guess, rampant is the word.

I think that every arts administrator struggles with it, probably at some point, whether your early career or more established in your career. And Jeremy, that's This happened to you too. I hope it's okay for me to say that. You almost didn't go for your current gig as music director of Aurora Symphony, but then you did and you got it.

[00:05:20] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah, I was feeling the imposter syndrome hard. I was seeing like conductors with 30 years of experience and I was 30 years old. applying for jobs around me. And so I, I almost didn't apply. And, you know, I got over that imposter syndrome and I still face a little bit every time I get on the podium or work with a new marketing client.

And so in this interview, we talk about how Joe faces similar things. She works with conductors and facilities managers as a recruitment specialist. So she really has to work with people in fields where she's not an expert. And that imposter syndrome is so real. 

[00:05:53] Aubrey Bergauer: Yeah, that is so real. You know, at some point we are all the, lesser experienced person in the [00:06:00] room, right?

Or at least we, or at least we always feel that way at some point. And I think now navigating that is a skill we can learn. I really have come to believe that, but we don't want to give too much away. So let's hear it from Jo and how she dealt with all of this. I'll let you two take it away.

[00:06:21] Jo Griffin: My name is Jo and I work as a recruitment specialist at the Banff Center for Arts and Creativity, uh, which is located in Banff National Park in Alberta, Canada. Um, and here I'm working as part of the recruitment team to recruit for, um, a wide range of different positions, uh, in arts administration and other roles, uh, across the organization.

[00:06:42] Jeremy Cuebas: Fantastic. Um, so today we're going to be talking about, uh, your journey as an arts admin. Could you tell us about how you first got into it or how you, how were you first drawn to it? 

[00:06:52] Jo Griffin: Yeah. So I first got into arts administration, um, kind of in the first and second years, years of my undergrad, [00:07:00] um, I started, My studies as a violin performance major, uh, but then unfortunately I had an injury, uh, pretty soon into my program and realized I needed to, uh, shift directions.

And so that's when I started, uh, kind of exploring, uh, all the possible possibilities that there might be in arts admin. Um, so I started looking into, you know, possible internships and what that career path might look like. And so, um, yeah, it was kind of an exciting new, new direction for me to take that I wasn't, uh, necessarily expecting, uh, when I started out, uh, studying music.

[00:07:34] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah. I think we're, we're kind of like athletes in that. Oh, we realized that a little injury shows how fragile we are. 

[00:07:40] Jo Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:07:42] Jeremy Cuebas: And was there a moment that you, that you thought that arts admin was the right path rather than just moving into a entirely different career? 

[00:07:49] Jo Griffin: Yeah, I think, um, the first internship that I had in arts admin, um, it was at music at Menlo, uh, chamber music festival and Institute in California.

And they [00:08:00] have a whole, um, Arts admin internship program. And that was really my first, uh, kind of experience, uh, working in that field. Um, and it was really great. So I was working, um, essentially with the, the team to manage the logistics for all the students, uh, in the chamber music program. And, uh, of course I had all the hands on experience, but I also had, um, like seminars and kind of group, uh, sessions about, um, kind of what are all the facets that make up an arts organization, like development and marketing and artistic planning and whatnot.

And so, um, that was sort of a really great window into that world and, um, kind of, uh, sparked my interest in, uh, pursuing that further. 

[00:08:42] Jeremy Cuebas: That's great. Great. You had a good Starting foundation. I think most people find it, find it accidentally, but you actually had like a whole program. You got to see all the different aspects and be around other people who were, who are, you know, doing it for real, for real.

[00:08:55] Jo Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. It was really great. There were probably about, Ooh, maybe a [00:09:00] dozen or two dozen, uh, of, of us, uh, in the intern program. So, um, it was great to, yeah, also connect with other people who were exploring this career path as well. 

[00:09:09] Jeremy Cuebas: Fantastic. And so you probably got a lot of really good fundamentals again through the whole organization.

What did you do after that? What was your step? 

[00:09:17] Jo Griffin: Yeah. So after that I got, um, interested in, I had that experience in a chamber music setting, but I really wanted to experience in a more orchestral setting to kind of see the other end of that. And so, uh, the next internship I did was at the Interlochen center for the arts.

Um, And I got a position as a ensemble, uh, librarian intern, and that was a very different world and a really great experience. I think that I realized that library work was not for me, a little bit too tedious and, uh, Super, super detailed, but, um, it was kind of also great to, to narrow down what I, what I did like and what I didn't like.

And so, uh, that was kind of just [00:10:00] another, another point to help me, uh, help me direct towards what I, what I wanted to do. And so then I realized that I wanted to work more with people and less with, you know, the notes on the page. Um, so that was kind of my, my next experience that I, that I took away from.

[00:10:14] Jeremy Cuebas: And then. Could you tell us about how you started working with Aubrey? 

[00:10:18] Jo Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, well, I first learned about Aubrey, um, through social media. So, um, when I was in high school, I was in the San Francisco Symphony Youth Orchestra, and our conductor at the time was, uh, Donato Cabrera, who was also the conductor of the California Symphony.

And so he of course worked quite closely with Aubrey. And so I found out about Aubrey because he shared a lot of her content on social media and I thought it was really fascinating. And so I started following her and really, it was kind of the, the first, Person that I saw kind of talking openly about the arts admin side of things.

I think there's obviously a lot of talk about [00:11:00] the artists themselves and the musicians themselves, but um, I wasn't seeing a whole lot of content for arts administrators. And so that was really cool to see. So I really just tried to, to take in her content and, um, you know, um, learn from what she had to share online.

Um, and then during the pandemic, when of course we were all, you know, You know, lacking connection and looking for, for people to connect with. I learned about her, um, professional development course, uh, through social media. And I thought that that would be, um, a really great opportunity to kind of, um, learn more about the, the possible.

Um, and also connect with other people who were maybe in a [00:12:00] similar position. Uh, so I was really excited to, to see that opportunity and, uh, spend my summer, uh, participating in those, in those zoom sessions. 

[00:12:08] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah. That's so rare that we get to, that we get to connect with other arts admin that aren't working like at our organization.

They're all different. Spread around. And what about that course was a turning point from you? There's something, there's something that was covered in the course, right? That made a big impact on your life. 

[00:12:25] Jo Griffin: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, quite a few things. I think, um, one of them being how to manage up and how to manage laterally.

I think that that's a very, very important thing. applicable to a lot of different jobs. I definitely found that that was relevant to, you know, working with conductors and, and guest artists and working with people who, you know, they want to focus on the music and you need to focus on the logistics and, you know, how do you get everyone to kind of, uh, work together in that way.

So that was really, really useful when she was talking about that. Um, and then I think one of the biggest takeaways for me was, uh, when she was talking about Applying for [00:13:00] jobs and also fair and equitable hiring practices. And I remember she, uh, she had this, this Twitter thread, uh, that she had posted a while back that she shared during the class.

And it was sort of, um, do's and don'ts for when you're applying for a job. And it was kind of one of the first times that that had really been said to me about, like, this is how you apply for a job professionally. And this is what you need to do. You know, this is how you write. A cover letter and how you, you know, focus the company that you're applying for and not just talk about me, me, me all the time.

Um, and so I thought at the time it was very relevant because I was going to be applying for jobs soon. Um, but kind of reflecting back on it, I also became interested in, um, the hiring process more from the, the employer side as well. And just, um, talking about things about how do you make the process fair for everyone.

Accessible for everyone. And that was sort of my first window into that whole world. And [00:14:00] so it really kind of, um, opens the door for, for those, those possibilities. 

[00:14:05] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah, I remember that. I remember that Twitter thread as well. It was a really good one. . 

[00:14:12] Jo Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that really stuck out for, for me, I think was, uh, it was a statistic about when people apply for jobs.

I think it was something like white men, they will apply only if they meet. You know, only some of the qualifications, but women and people of color will only apply if they meet 100 percent of the qualifications. And that was really eye opening as well, you know, for myself applying for jobs and also from, from the other end of it, um, looking at the applications that you're receiving.

And so, uh, yeah, just having that, that kind of perspective, I hadn't, That was probably one of the first times that that was brought to my attention was during, um, her, uh, professional development course.[00:15:00] 

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[00:17:25] Jeremy Cuebas: And then you said that you recently applied for a job that you felt underqualified for and that perhaps that statistic gave you the confidence to apply for it. Could you talk about that if you're comfortable? 

[00:17:36] Jo Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I've been working at BAM Center, uh, for arts and creativity and I was previously in the office that.

Uh, supports the artists while they were, uh, while they're here on campus. So I was helping with their, um, accessibility accommodations for artists with disabilities. I was organizing their dietary restrictions, uh, well being initiatives, things like that. So, [00:18:00] uh, supporting the artists while on campus. And, um, that was a really great job, uh, but I saw an opportunity that came up for Um, and I was really excited by it and thought, Oh, I really, I really need to go for it.

And, you know, I definitely had fears about, um, yeah, not being qualified enough or, you know, not having quite the right experience that they were looking for. But, um. I think I really had to think back to, you know, people telling you to just go for it and not let imposter syndrome get to you. So, you know, I finally convinced myself to, to, to apply, but it definitely wasn't just an automatic, like, Oh, I'm going to apply.

I really had to. Convince myself that I should go for it, and I'm really glad I did, ultimately, uh, because it's been a great job for me so far. Um, but yeah, I think a lot of people might doubt their abilities sometimes, so I wanted to not let that happen to me.[00:19:00] 

You know, when you're in a new job, in any sort of circumstance, or you know, in a new graduate program or whatnot, you know, you have to remind yourself that they picked you for a reason and that you're not like, a fraud or something like that, um, because I think we, we all know that that can sometimes creep in.

Um, so, but I feel like being a part of, now I'm part of Aubrey's online community as well. Um, being in a community of other people who are taking risks in their careers and trying new things, I think it's really great to, to be a part of a community where people are talking about those things and realize that, you know, you're not alone with, you know, fears of, 

[00:19:40] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah, that's a great point.

Yeah, the community of people like us in Arts Admin who are trying to apply the research, who are trying to increase our audiences, who are trying to do all these things that, um, people in, in, that are not a part of this community, that are not, you know, trying to really, really grow, um, May poo poo or [00:20:00] may say, you know, our subscribers are not going to like that if we do that, or you're rocking the boat too much.

It's really great to have the community of people who are doing that along with us. 

[00:20:09] Jo Griffin: Yeah. And I think it's also really great, um, seeing people in this online community and, and beyond who are just, you know, in very different, um, aspects of ArtsAdmin. So, you know, there's people who are really into marketing and people who are really into development and all those things.

And, um, I think. Even though those aren't my areas of work, it's interesting just to hear from those people and some of the challenges that they're facing in those areas, because I think there can always be parallels across the whole organization, because it all functions as one. So, um, yeah, it's just really great to hear all those, um, 

[00:20:43] Jeremy Cuebas: Well, and one of the challenges you mentioned a second ago was confidence and like imposter syndrome and, and I think all of us are, are, are facing that all the time, especially when we get a new job or, or we take a big risk.

It's like. Am I ready? Am I ready for this? Do other people think I'm [00:21:00] ready for this? What if they see that I'm not? But, like, everybody feels that way. 

[00:21:04] Jo Griffin: Yeah, yeah, and I think it's definitely the, um, sort of, uh, fake it till you make it, sort of, uh, saying. You have to do it in order to, Do it. Well, you know, you have to start somewhere, so, yeah.

[00:21:15] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long have you, have you been in your current position? 

[00:21:18] Jo Griffin: So I've been in my current position a little bit over two months now. Um, so, you know, there's been a bit of a learning curve, you know, just learning how, how the organization does things, um, feeling more, more confident. But I think one of the things I really like about the job is that I just get to.

so many different people who are, um, from so many different backgrounds, different types of jobs. Um, I'm, you know, I'm recruiting for, for roles that are supporting the arts, but, you know, arts organizations need, um, you know, a facilities team and, um, a finance team and all these things that are not necessarily arts focused.

And so one of the. The things that's been really interesting about my job is that I've been [00:22:00] recruiting for jobs in our facilities department and learning, okay, what does a power engineer do? And, you know, what are, what are they looking for? And, uh, it's, it's been really fascinating to see into those, those worlds.

Cause you know, you need all aspects to run an organization. 

[00:22:14] Jeremy Cuebas: And tell us how Aubrey helped you discover your why and maybe how it's evolved over time. 

[00:22:19] Jo Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. So I think in Aubrey's course, that was one of the first times where I was sort of forced to have more intention with what I wanted to do with my career.

I think, um, before that, you know, I had tried out different things, tried out different jobs and I kind of learned what I liked and what I didn't like, um, but I think, um, sort of bringing that all together and having a clear why for, for why you're doing what you're doing can help you, uh, have more intention when you're applying for jobs in the future.

And so during that course at the time, I think I, I figured out that my why was that I wanted [00:23:00] to. Help the musicians, um, behind the scenes with all the, the logistical things so that they could have a seamless performance and they could just focus on their craft and not have to worry about any of the details behind the scenes.

And so I really liked that kind of just the, you know, offstage behind the scenes aspect of the work. And so, uh, but ultimately the why was all about helping the musicians succeed. And so that was kind of, uh, What I had in my mind when I was, um, moving forward with, with job opportunities.

Um, and I think in, now that I've come to my current role in recruiting, of course, that's changed a bit. I'm not directly supporting the musicians and the artists, but I am supporting the people who support the artists. So I'm kind of another, I guess, degree of separation away from [00:24:00] that. But I think the, the way that my, my why has evolved is that now I'm.

And then, um, I think a lot of it is just people wanting to support the arts administrators and the other people who are working behind the scenes and helping them with their goals. Um, and helping them be able to support the arts organization as a whole. Um, and I think ultimately the Y is just helping people.

With their goals, and I think that's a big part of recruiting is, you know, when you hire someone for a job and they're really good fit for it, and it's a win win situation for everyone because it aligns with their goals and their skills. And it also aligns with what the organization needs. And that's really fulfilling.

And ultimately, that supports. The artists, um, in the end. 

[00:24:43] Jeremy Cuebas: I think that's a beautiful way to look at, um, supporting other people and their goals. And you're so, you're so right. You're loving, like literally you are, but then in a broader sense, you're really helping the musicians by helping the people who help the musicians, like [00:25:00] inside the organization and the people coming into the organization.

I love that insight. 

[00:25:04] Jo Griffin: Yeah, yeah, I think it's, uh, it's really cool to be, to be in this, in this position and to kind of, you're almost like a professional matchmaker in a way, but I find it incredibly rewarding. 

[00:25:15] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned managing up earlier, um, do you have a specific time when you've used that skill?

Cause it's, it's one of the ones that, that people bring up all the time. From the up level course and other professional development courses and how to manage up or how to manage laterally. So do you have any specific examples of how you've used that? 

[00:25:35] Jo Griffin: Yeah, definitely. I think I can give you two examples that I'd say are pretty parallel.

So, uh, the first one I mentioned a little bit before was, I think it was working with, with conductors when you're in an arts admin role, um, and you're, you know, you're trying to get the details done and you need to get, uh, Programs printed and all those things and you need details from conductors and perhaps they're more about the bigger vision and about [00:26:00] the art and you know, that's really great.

Um, but you have to work together with them to, so you can both meet your goals. And so I think managing up and managing laterally is something that I really, you know, you have to be able to do in those situations in order to. So that everyone, um, sort of meets their goals and that the whole, the whole finished product can come together.

And I think in my, in my current job, I'm finding a lot of parallels to working with hiring managers, um, because I'm hiring for many different departments and every department has their own kind of personality. Different hiring managers have different, um, habits and whatnot. And so just kind of learning.

How to work with so many different people and, you know, perhaps some people you need to nudge a little bit more to get information and some people are more, um, on the ball with things and more communicative. So just, um, learning everyone's communication style and, um, learning how to interact with all those different components and balancing that.

Um, so I think, um, to bring it back to your question about, uh, managing [00:27:00] offends, uh. The course that Aubrey taught, I think that that was a really, really useful topic to cover because, you know, I can think of these examples in my own professional life, but I'm sure that there's so many other roles out there where it's the same thing and you need to work together with people who are perhaps at a more advanced level.

Senior level than you and you have to, yeah, manage up towards them. 

[00:27:23] Jeremy Cuebas: Yeah. And you're, you're right. You're managing a, you're, you're working with a lot of people and a lot of different, uh, fields and fields where you're not the expert, like in the facilities department. 

[00:27:34] Jo Griffin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, making sure that you listen to them for their expertise and recognizing your limitations in that way, but then also making sure that you're keeping the hiring process, um, the same across all the departments.

So it's kind of consistent for the whole organization. I think that that's a really important part. 

[00:27:53] Jeremy Cuebas: There's a balance. It sounds like of managing their expertise and then also managing your own [00:28:00] expertise and your own responsibilities. That's tough. Uh, I'd like to take a second to, uh, apologize to everybody who's ever tried to email a conductor and get an answer for how long it takes us to get back to you.

Just thought I'd put that out there and apologize for everybody. 

[00:28:17] Jo Griffin: Yeah, I meant, uh, no, uh, bad feelings toward conductors, you know, we, we love the conductors. They, they bring the, the life to the, to the music, so, um, yeah. 

[00:28:27] Jeremy Cuebas: Perfect. Well, Joe, you've, you're at the beginning of a really great career. I can tell you're really, really devoted to what you do and, and to making a big difference.

I'm so happy to have you in our arts admin workforce. Um, what advice would you give to, um, you know, People starting their career or maybe trying to figure out what they want to do or what their impact is. 

[00:28:49] Jo Griffin: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say take the opportunity when you're just starting out to, to try lots of different things and not just different types of jobs, but also [00:29:00] different organizations if you can, because Every organization has its own culture and, you know, different ways that they do things.

And so I think really exposing yourself to the different workplaces and different types of jobs while you're still starting out and you know, it's more acceptable to, to job hop if, if you will. And just, yeah, just, just explore all the options and that can help kind of narrow it out and figure out. What it is you like doing, what it is, what it is you don't like doing.

[00:29:30] Jeremy Cuebas: And also be sure to join the Changing the Narrative community. 

[00:29:34] Jo Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. If, um, Aubrey has any professional development courses or webinars or anything like that, um, that's a really great way to, to also see what's out there. And I guess part two of my answer would be to connect with other, other arts administrators.

Of course, within your own organization, but from others as well, um, learning from other people and other organizations is [00:30:00] super valuable. 

[00:30:00] Jeremy Cuebas: Fantastic. And Joe, how can people, uh, connect with you after this interview? 

[00:30:04] Jo Griffin: Yeah. So I'm active on LinkedIn. Um, my LinkedIn link is, uh, just Joe dash Griffin. Um, so you can find me on there.

Um, and I would love to connect and learn about your, your career and, um, um, What you're, what you're doing in arts admin. 

[00:30:21] Jeremy Cuebas: Thank you so much for joining us today. 

[00:30:23] Jo Griffin: Yeah. Thank you. 

[00:30:26] Aubrey Bergauer: There is a lot you were never taught about navigating a career in arts management. Nobody taught you how to land an administrative role, ask for a promotion, how to have confidence in job interviews, how to properly sell and brand yourself, how to get buy in for your ideas, how to manage up to a boss or a board, or how to motivate the best performance and others on your team.

That all changes. Starting October 17th, join me, Aubrey Bergauer, for a new free live virtual event where you will [00:31:00] learn the things that are holding you back and equip yourself to take your career in arts management to the next level, no matter where you're at right now. From student to professional.

It's a long timer in the field to being an artist with an interest in administration. It's called They Never Taught You That, a three part virtual training on how to grow your career in arts management. And it all starts very soon, completely free. But you do need to save your seat. Register now at www.

aubreybergauer. com slash how to. To grow your career. You can't win a game if you don't know the rules, right? So go to AubreyBergauer. com slash how to grow your career and we'll change that together. Can't wait to see you there.

The Offstage Mic is produced by me, Aubrey Bergauer. And Aaron Allen. The show is edited by Novo Music, an audio production company of all women audio engineers and musicians. Our theme music is by Alex Broll. Additional podcast [00:32:00] support this season comes from Jeremy Cuevas, Kelly Steadman, other members of the Changing the Narrative team, and social media brand management by Classical Content.

This is a production of Changing the Narrative. Is

[00:32:21] Novo Music: it just me, or does this sound terrible? Wait, I think I heard of someone who might be able to help us. There's this company called Novo Music. They provide across the board audio solutions, from recording repair to audio editing to original music and sound design and beyond. 

Well, what are we waiting for?

Now that's better. Novo Music. Conducting your creative vision. Find out more. At NovoMusic. co