TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Aubrey Bergauer: hi everyone. Welcome to episode seven of this second season of the Offstage Mic. I wanted to start today by sharing a new piece of research that just came out for the field. This comes from research firm Slover Lynette, in partnership with some classical music radio stations that's classical king in Seattle.

They're the ones who commissioned the study. As well as WQ XR in New York, plus W R T I in Philadelphia and K U C O in Oklahoma. This research was born out of a question, as is often the case with research projects of all kinds across all industries, and that question was how can public media organizations learn more?

About the relationship that black, indigenous and people of color in the United States have with classical music. So if you work in or near radio, not just classical music radio, but any [00:01:00] broadcasting really, you already know this and that is that only one company really provides audience data for radio and television.

Again, any kind of broadcasting for the most part. And that's Nielsen. So Nielsen has its pros and cons. One of the cons is the ethnicity stats they collect are very limited, and this is further exacerbated by collecting information from relatively small sample sizes among Hispanic and black listeners across all genres.

I believe that's true, these small sample sizes, so. This is really leaving a void of information when Hispanic and black people now comprise more than 30% of the US population. That's the latest census data. This means we are talking like a third of people that radio stations don't know a lot about in terms of the data Nielsen collects.

So Classical King and these other stations decided to do something about it [00:02:00] and they, as I said, commissioned Slover Lynette to do this study. So that's the background in the context. What their findings include are that one, people across racial and ethnic groups listen to classical music at relatively similar rates.

This was true of several genres, meaning people across racial and ethnic groups listened to several genres at relatively similar rates. So this means that's not just true for classical music, but also true for pop r and b and rap and hip hop, for example. So we're all kind of listening to these genres about the same.

Another finding is that people of all races and ethnicities who listen to classical music more frequently, actually, Listen to a wider range of genres in general. In other words, people who tend to listen to classical music more frequently, like all kinds of music. So I think that's very interesting. The range is quite [00:03:00] broad, even when they listen to classical music more often.

Next, finding most people, again, across all races and ethnicities in the study, most people have either neutral or positive perceptions of classical music. Even those who don't listen to it. This is great news for us. Neutral or positive perceptions, we're not climbing uphill in terms of fighting a negative perception.

So that's a pretty good baseline to be at. And again, this is true of even people who self-identified as people who don't listen to it. They just don't listen on a regular basis. Still doesn't have a negative perception. Okay. Next across racial and ethnic groups, there tended to be a narrow definition of what constitutes classical music.

So whereas neutral or positive perception, maybe the other side of that coin, or just another coin altogether, is that there tended to be a narrow definition of what constitutes classical music. Themes that emerge from that, for example, are they define classical music as music that's [00:04:00] old. Or it's music that they listen to only when they want to feel calm.

And of course, those things are true in many cases about classical music. But as we know, working in this business, those aren't the only things that are true about this genre. So I see this as presenting a giant opportunity to showcase how the genre is far more vast than those descriptors. And there are many more great findings that even though this project was specifically for classical music, radio can absolutely apply to so much of the work we do at producing and presenting organizations.

So I just wanna publicly say thanks to Classical King for taking action and commissioning this study and for sharing it with the rest of us. I hope it's helpful, interesting, and informative for all of you listening right now. Moving to today's topic, [00:05:00] we are talking about the orchestra of influence. So if you know me, you know I am a big fan of content.

I'm a big believer in the power of content, both for brands and for individuals. And this goes way back. Maybe this is the part you don't know about me, even if you've been following me a while. This goes way back. I started creating content back at the Seattle Opera in 2006. I was the audience development manager there at the time.

They eventually expanded the role and title to be something like audience development and media or something like that. So really, content became a huge part of the role, and the timing was such that, that was 2006 to 2012 I was there. So at that time was really an important time in terms of content, social media becoming such a part of marketing and branding for any business.

So seeing the power of content that goes way back for me now and. When we kind of fast forward to today, content is so critical to building [00:06:00] trust, trust with individuals, trust at the people we serve. Again, this is true for any business, not just the arts, of course. And so on a macro level, wow, the narrative is changing hugely in this way.

This is why word of mouth is more powerful than critical reviews. Now, this is why Amazon reviews matter or Yelp, Google social media. You know, people trust their friends recommendations more than a professional media outlet. Oftentimes now, and the rise of influencers has been sort of birthed out of all of this.

Maybe the next evolution or next phase, next iteration in this macro trend and the rise of influencers in particular really does illustrate this shift. Put some numbers behind that. In 2022, the influencer industry reached 16.4 billion compared to only 9.7 billion in 2020, so it was already almost a 10 billion industry in 2020.

Fast forward just two years, and it had increased [00:07:00] even 60% over that 2020 baseline. This year though, the influencer marketing industry is expected to continue this growth pace. To be worth 21.1 billion by the end of the year. That's 2023. And one more point on this, today, more than 75% of brands have a dedicated budget for influencer marketing.

So all of this illustrates why content is king Now, why trust in individuals matters more than trust in the brand in many cases. And here we've got these, you know, industry wide numbers supporting this, showing us this growth in this trend before our eyes. How does this all apply to us? Well, arts and culture organizations have a tremendous asset at our disposal that we are not fully utilizing, and that is our artist.

So when we're [00:08:00] talking about orchestras, that's our orchestra musicians, you know, 70 to 85 people. If it's an opera company, it's contracted singers, chorus for ballet companies. That's our dancers. Some artists are doing this on their own. Some artists have a fantastic online presence. They understand the content strategy and they're doing it and crushing it.

On the other side of the spectrum, some artists don't want any part of this. They don't want any online presence at all. Really. Not their thing, not their interest, and that's okay too. What I'm trying to say is both ends of this spectrum are okay, but I would contend there's probably a pretty big middle here of people who say, yeah, I see this trend.

I experience it in my own life probably, and. I do wanna be a part of this strategy, but I need help. And that to me is the sweet spot for our organizations and how we can leverage this tremendous asset that we jointly hold together. [00:09:00] So we're gonna spend our time today talking about this with someone who has worked firsthand with organizations on this exact topic.

We are gonna hear a case study about how this worked, building this idea of the orchestra of influence, what they learned, and what other organizations can do, who want to start down the road and emulate the strategy. In other words, we're talking about how do we activate this asset? How do we activate what I now like to call the influencer army?

The influencer army. We have baked in to our organizations. Content is the name of the game. People trusting people over brands is the playbook. We have all of this at our disposal as the narrative continues to change for arts and culture. Welcome to episode seven. Let's hit it. Hey everyone. I'm Aubrey Bergauer and welcome to my podcast.

If we haven't met, I'm known in the arts world for being customer-centric, data obsessed, and for growing [00:10:00] revenue. The arts are my vehicle to make the change I wanna see in this world, like creating places of belonging, pursuing gender and racial equality, developing high performing teams and leaders, and leveraging technology to elevate our work.

In this season, I'm bringing you conversations with some of my favorite experts from both inside and outside the arts. All to help build the vibrant future we know is possible for our institutions and for ourselves as offstage administrators and leaders. You are listening to the offstage mic.

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And we're back today on Top. Tunes. The music, is it just me 

[00:12:07] David Taylor: or does this sound 

[00:12:07] Aubrey Bergauer: terrible? Wait, I think I heard of someone who might be able to help us. There's this company called Novo Music. They provide across the board audio solutions from recording repair, to audio editing, to original music and sound design and beyond.

Well, what are we waiting for today? On top tunes the music. Now that's better. Novo Music. Conducting your creative vision. Find out more@novomusic.co. I am so excited to introduce you all to today's guest, David Taylor. Here's what you need to know about David. David Taylor was on the Forbes 30 Under 30 Europe list, and that alone is pretty impressive.

But I just have to say this is alongside names like Dupa and Little Mix. Like I can't even imagine opening the magazine and seeing your name next to Dupa and Little Mix. So, Forbes 30 under 30 Euro list. He's been called an arts [00:13:00] innovator by the B B C. He is one of the leading entrepreneurs and thought leaders in the world of classical music.

To this end, he has a book out, it's called The Future of Classical Music, part One. Talking about the many challenges the classical music industry faces, so we can start having conversations on what the future looks like and how we get there. I will link to his book on the show notes so you can grab a copy.

And I have to say, I think this is why I just eat everything up that David puts out there because definitely some synergies between his work and mine. And he's just so thought provoking in how he writes about the challenges and, and what to do about it. So anyways, if you're interested in that, again, I'll put the book on the show notes.

Highly recommend, and it's part one, so I wanna know when Part Two's coming out. David. In addition to all of that, he is a savvy digital marketer. He led the Yorkshire Young Symphonia to be the first youth orchestra in the world to go a hundred percent digital. That means no [00:14:00] sheet music at all. They were doing everything totally digital, and now he does a lot of consulting work in this area, in the digital space, including the project and case study we're gonna hear about today.

Welcome, David. I'm so glad to have you. 

[00:14:15] David Taylor: Thank you so much and thank you so much for, for inviting me to be on. It's really 

[00:14:18] Aubrey Bergauer: exciting. So for now, first question from me is I have talked before about this idea of influencers and brands using their talent, and specifically I usually use Peloton as the case study for this.

Anybody who took my comeback planning sprint last year has heard this, A couple conference talks. I've used this case study. And in short, what they do is they don't say follow Peloton at the end of all of their workouts. They say, follow me, insert instructors handle. And that's what really started for me, spurring this idea of, oh my gosh, why aren't classical music organizations doing this with our artists?

So my question for you is that you've also used sports as an analogy. I've [00:15:00] heard you talk about soccer teams, football teams, for everybody here in Europe, and I love it. So with all of that, like can you just say more about this? What was your journey to understanding all this? How did you get this idea?

Tell us? 

[00:15:12] David Taylor: Very similar. And during the pandemic, I was having lots of conversations with the orchestras, and one thing that kept coming up again and again was that people come to our concerts because they love our musicians. And I always didn't really sit well with that. It felt strange cause as an industry we're so bad at showcasing those personalities.

Nine times out of 10, everyone on stage is a black and white tuxedoed anonymous blob. And even if you have a concert program with a list of all the players, there's very little chance you can match the name to the person. And then after the concert, there's no way of staying in touch with them. We dunno what their personalities are like.

It's a complete anomaly. But similar to yourself, like looking at the world of sports and. Particularly soccer, but also basketball, NFL rugby, all these other things. We know who all the players are in the first team. We also know the reserve [00:16:00] players. If we follow the sport, we probably even know the youth academy people, and that's not an accent.

This is something which the sports teams have actually enabled. So each player has their own brand profile. They communicate in the way that works best for them. But it's through a series of media training, social media training, how to do a brand, how to market yourself, and that's a big investment from those organizations.

But it's an investment that is done without sort of wanting a return. Initially, it could be done knowing the player might leave in six months. If they're transferred, it might be done knowing they may not even talk about the team or not. And it may be done not knowing if they even talk about the sport or not.

So one of the big examples I used in the UK was a soccer player or football player called Marcus Rashford, who plays from Manchester United. And he used his big social media following that he got from playing for one of the big teams to not talk about soccer, but during the pandemic campaign for food poverty with children.

And he got this huge campaign behind him and off the back of it was in national press and he got the government to change their mind, not once but twice. And through all of this huge media [00:17:00] attention he got. Manchester United, the football team behind him managed to bask in some of the globe. They were having relationships built at scale by someone who was powerful in a way that was really meaningful, that ultimately were then added to this ecosystem of building connections at scale.

So that's why I became really fascinated about why that could be with orchestras, and then also in particular that this is a 100% the norm in sports teams of all levels and sizes and statues, and it absolutely should be the norm within our world as well. I love 

[00:17:27] Aubrey Bergauer: it. Oh my gosh, I love it so much. So, okay, let's dive into this case study then, cuz you did it.

So you worked with the Phil Harmonia Orchestra in London. I mean, this is a pretty big brand. I think a lot of people probably know the Phil Harmonia, if you don't, their former music director was S aan, who's now at San Francisco Symphony, where I'm normally based, at least based in San Francisco. And they brought you in to lead a project called the Orchestra of Influence Program.

So can you outline for us what was that? Scope of work? What was that program all about? 

[00:17:59] David Taylor: Definitely. [00:18:00] So after having the big wild idea of like, wouldn't this be amazing, it then came down to the practical of how would you actually do this? And realistically, taking as much, I would love to take on 75 people in the orchestra at once.

It's not feasible and it's too unwieldy. And also it's also about managing change and bringing people on board with that journey. So what we did is we came up with an initial project where it was taking on the early adopters in the orchestra, those who were really interested in sort of taking this further and with it, developing a series of initial group coaching and developing a curriculum that would cover all the foundational bases and what they would need to know on their journeys.

And this was decided on, based on my experience of working with musicians of all levels, either music, college, those in the profession, higher up, those who are amateurs, all these different things, and seeing the the common themes and trends. And then from there, after we had this initial group coaching, which was a mixture of stuff around entrepreneurship and creative thinking, social media platforms, websites, how to do blogging and podcasts at the technical side of things, how to create content.

But more importantly, how to build your own roadmap was the final one that eventually [00:19:00] led them onto individual coaching where they could then take their ideas and run with them and work on 'em together. And this was the idea that they would do completely different things. No two people would do the same.

Unlike some programs where you see it's like cookie cutter templates, social media training, where everyone is exactly the same. We see it in record labels, in classical music where within one second you're like, oh, about CD release is definitely someone with this label. Cause everyone sounds the same and it doesn't connect.

This was, in essence, try and do things that are completely unique and authentic to them. That takes into account their preferred method of communicating their passions, their interests, their skills, also their lifestyle, uh, the amount of time they want to commit, all these other things as well. And so from there, all of a sudden we had.

10 people who are both the musicians, but also some of the administrators being able to connect people at scale in a way that work for them. And what I get really excited about is that normally if you were the orchestra, social media account, you can communicate in one way at one time with one voice.

All of a sudden with this, we now have 10 different ways of communicating with completely different [00:20:00] styles of voices and passions behind it. 

[00:20:02] Aubrey Bergauer: Yeah. Oh my gosh. And you mentioned this in passing, but administrators could participate too. Yes. I think is just very smart. I love it. Well, I think many orchestras have probably thought about this idea.

In theory. I. To my knowledge, the Phil Harmoni is the first one to do it in practice. And so my question is why? Why did they decide to do this? You mentioned this, how many musicians participated? I think you said 10 or so. I can't remember. Was the marketing department involved? Now I'm asking a lot of questions.

Okay. Why did they decide to do this tactically? Who all was involved maybe is the way to frame it? 

[00:20:37] David Taylor: Yes. So the difficulty with programs like this is it's bring on board a lot of stakeholders within an organization, and I was very lucky at the Ponia that they were really keen on the idea. Um, originally the decision maker, my conversations were with the chief of exec, but also then include the marketing department and then offering it up to the musicians.

It is difficult to instigate cause it's such a radical idea for our industry, this [00:21:00] outside our normal paradigm where even though it is so prevalent in sport, it does take a big change. So those were the people who was on board in this initial journey with the musicians as well. It was being very open with them about what the process is.

To be honest. The big thing that goes forward, and this is trust, which is actually quite a difficult thing to manage at times. Every organization I've spoken to always has a, an us them divide to some certain extent between players and management. So that's always something to be, be aware of. And if worst case scenario with this program, it went badly, it would turn up to you are wanting us to create content to sell tickets and that's not my job and I should be being paid.

Fortunately that doesn't happen. In essence, it is more this ecosystem of corporation collaboration that everyone is better off of the back of this. So ultimately that was the, the vibe we got through it. And unfortunately with the program, all of it's delivered online, so that made it a lot easier to actually do in terms of practicalities.

And we had eight musicians and two administrators who were the people on board as part of this 

[00:21:54] Aubrey Bergauer: journey. I think that's important too, that it wasn't, everybody in the orchestra participated, it wasn't forced upon [00:22:00] anybody it sounds like. I think that's important to this kind of work. So you mentioned of these different sort of training sessions you did.

The last one was more about, you know, empowering them to continue to go forward on their own, if I'm understanding this. But was that the idea that musicians would just take this and run with it going forward and the staff that participated? Or is the idea that they would still continue to work very closely with the marketing team?

I guess I'm trying to like how integrated were these two things during the program and then afterwards. 

[00:22:32] David Taylor: Yeah, so it's 50 50, but ultimately the idea is they do whatever they want with this program and they get to do whatever output they want, connect in different people, whatever their ideas are, that's what they do.

So slightly similar to the example I used of Marcus Rashford food poverty probably wasn't on man tonight's agenda, and yet that was the direction he wiped off, campaigned in. So it doesn't necessarily have to be charitable courses, but whatever passions they want to do, the way in which they communicate what they were wanting to discuss as part of their building a brand and profile and and projects that was [00:23:00] entirely down to them.

And during their individual coaching, there was a middle session where it was then including the marketing department to tie back in as sort of what this would look like if they were to be a curator of this content that's now been there. And also if then all of a sudden they were wanting ideas and what sort of themes could then integrate.

But ultimately, it's there as a dialogue between the two parties where in essence, The orchestra invests in the musicians to do what they want. So hopefully they are strengthened with their individual outputs and projects and they become more in demand and it's good for their careers. And then in return, they're in essence building relationships at scale, which they're doing offline anyway.

That's the one thing I didn't mention at the beginning where all musicians and orchestras will be doing teaching chamber ensemble performances, lectures at Conservatory Arts, like whether we like it or not, they are representing the orchestra outside of the orchestra, so it makes total sense to empower 'em to thrive, to do it online, when they could just do it online anyway, and.

Maybe not be as successful. 

[00:23:51] Aubrey Bergauer: Yeah, totally. Totally. So, okay. What was the level of understanding of the participants, musicians and staff? Were they like the most social media savvy people that were like, [00:24:00] yep, sign me up or not? What was the baseline? 

[00:24:03] David Taylor: I don't think they'll mind me saying even though these were the early adoption, the cohorts, they were probably further behind the curve than saying freelance musicians and students.

Two of the participants didn't have any social media of any form going into this like,

Um, and then on the flip side was, um, one participant who was already very digital savvy, had been running live streams during lockdown who was having concert series, so there was a variety there, but I think I, they won't, I hope they don't mind me saying that they were coming. Some of them were coming at this with fresh eyes and it certainly was a fresh approach in some circumstances.

What is interesting, and this is both with the program, but also my other work as well. I reckon at most, 25% of what I'm talking about is which button to push. An extreme most, 75% is how do you feel and it's very much about your fears. Anxieties. A really interesting theme was, I'm worried what my colleagues would think about me if I am being self-promoting.

Is that, that I'm bragging but equal. That was a, an interesting shared theme [00:25:00] of everyone then realized was sort of dispelled from talking it through and also than seeing case studies and. Sarah Willis is a really interesting example at the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. Someone who is able to sort of have her own brand and also inside, alongside the orchestra.

But it was certainly a variety of levels and sort of adoption of the idea as well. Yeah. 

[00:25:17] Aubrey Bergauer: Oh man. And then sharing insecurity, how vulnerable. That's amazing. Yeah, 

[00:25:22] David Taylor: that was, that was actually using a tool called Mentee Meter. So it's a kind of like PowerPoint where you can write responses and it goes onto the screen so it's all anonymous.

It wasn't sort of like, here's a big fear. It was more like word cloud associations. Mm-hmm. Getting as much of like this sort of actual open sharing out the way as possible. So it's more, uh, themes and things that are not confrontational and too much, and luckily there are very good trusting team as well.

So they were great to, to really be quite open during the program. 

[00:25:46] Aubrey Bergauer: That's a good segue into results. You started sharing a little bit now just some of these outcomes. So in the program metrics that you shared with me, I saw that before the program. Lemme make sure I get this right. Before the program, having a [00:26:00] digital presence as a musician was ranked as a seven outta 10.

That's what they ranked it before the program started. Lemme repeat it. Having a digital presence as a musician was ranked seven outta 10 of like, how important is this in this type of question? I believe by the midpoint evaluation though, it was already a nine, so definitely almost at the top of the scale, even just by the midpoint evaluation in terms of how.

How important this work was to them. So what did you do, or did they do to change this perception? Like, and I'm already seeing this in the questions here of like, how do we bring our musicians along to want this? I think that's sort of what this question is an indicator of a bit. So can you speak to that a little bit?

[00:26:42] David Taylor: Yeah, certainly. So I think the pandemic certainly helped us like a, a breaker in our way of thinking and prize the pandemic. I have no way of proving this, but I think the rate of adoption would've been slower. So I think all of a sudden there was an acknowledgement that things have to be different. For context, the Ponia and the other three London [00:27:00] orchestras, uh, self owns and self-governed, which also means their players are slightly more self-employed as well.

So as a result of that, they are more. Of at the whims of the world and the the pandemics when things came about, they didn't have the security of being full employment, as did regional orchestras in the uk. So off the back of that, I think there was more than when things had to be different.

Interestingly, even though it was seven out of 10 of importance, we still had people who didn't have personal profiles going forwards. But with it, it was very much talking about sort of what the outcomes would be like. There was certainly sort of where would you want your career to be in three, five years sort of conversations.

And then off the back of it, how would it look like to get there? What are the journeys and steps on the way of the back of that? And also, as you can tell, I can talk for a long time as well. So I definitely chew that ear off. The huge benefits of this going forward. One thing if I'm really helpful is actually saying, this goes back to what I think is the origin of us musicians and that we actually had this weird 100 year specialization period where we had like a full-time job or.

Employment and pensions. But historically, Mozart was entrepreneurial. Paganini was entrepreneurial. So [00:28:00] Mozart doing portfolio career of composing chamber music, conducting, teaching, all these different things. Paganini, when he heard rumors about himself, um, selling his soul to the devil, started dressing in black to play up to it.

So, Almost at our heritage. Having those examples to go back to was really helpful. Similarly, using modern day examples like Sarah Willis was also really beneficial to sort of, even if the conversation of me explaining it wouldn't be able to showcase something, actually having a person as an example was really powerful as a wave of sort of transmitting that.

And the other halfway point was after the initial group sessions and only four individual coaching. So even though some were still. Oh, very much at the beginning of their journeys and their digital outputs. It was really reassuring from my side and really positive to hear that they were, yeah, adopting the idea really well.

[00:28:44] Aubrey Bergauer: What were the top takeaways or findings from the program 

[00:28:47] David Taylor: sort of around the things that were sort of unexpected? I think it was the majority of them hadn't thought about their careers and where they were gonna be in three years time, and then even less so, and how they were gonna get there. So even obviously the pandemic really [00:29:00] throws that into light.

Thought was really fascinating. Equally the level of confidence, even the short space of time, I wasn't quite expecting them to turn around that quickly. And also they were creating accounts and generating content that much, even though this wasn't meant to be a big money making project. A third of the participants had additional offers of work during the program, which was really reassuring.

And to me, I was not expecting. So all of a sudden there's then a financial as to why musicians could be involved in this cuz their own personal. Professional lives are then enriched with actual work and money, which is always a nice thing to go back to when it comes to why should you do this and why should be a part of it.

And then also, Joe, I think just in general, the interest in this as an idea as well, and that there's a real appetite for this as a concept going forwards. So I get really excited about this being, hopefully a narrative that we can continue and find more ways of facilitating it. 

[00:29:44] Aubrey Bergauer: I just wanna underscore what you said about the participants in the program started getting offers for additional work.

This is classic content. Influencer results. This is, I mean, it totally matches up with why this industry of influencer marketing is growing so much because, It [00:30:00] results in more lucrative opportunities. I think it's a fantastic benefit. 

[00:30:04] David Taylor: Totally. And what I loved as well with this idea of everyone did completely different things.

The work was seriously random. So at one level we had someone who was doing, uh, masterclass and workshops at Conservatoire. We had someone who got some work rearranging rackman off second piano concerto for DJ and piano, where someone doing like the very typical influencer going to restaurants and playing and sort of having influencer Instagram style content.

Other participants. One was writing about music and philosophy in French. Uh, another creator that owned violin excerpt on demand platform, kind of like Netflix, but for violin excerpts. So there's a huge range of different things that came outta this. It's completely varied, so it's really fascinating that there's, um, I wasn't expecting the results to be that fast of actually being able to sort of generate attention off the back of it that brings in swimming a more tangible.

Yeah, 

[00:30:49] Aubrey Bergauer: I'm just like, the gears are turning cuz I love, I'm a big believer of like you put out into the world which you wanna get back and that's what happened. I feel like only among a group of artists could you have like such varied [00:31:00] content that results in such varied offers for work coming back. I love the range that came back for the administrators that participated.

Was there content and results similar? Was it different? I'm kind of curious. 

[00:31:13] David Taylor: It's similar. Uh, obviously it'll be slightly different. What they were doing is mainly talking about ideas and concepts in the industry. Time seemed to be the biggest constraints on them as well, and I think particularly cuz they were employed to do say nine to five, no one in the arts works nine to five, but full-time hours.

It then became harder to create content off the back of it. So that was a particular challenge that I found administrators were hard to, and also in essence, it kind of. Narrows you down a very linear path of what you're gonna do, which is in essence talking about ideas in the sector. So whereas on the musical side, there's a whole range of different things you could potentially do.

It becomes more theoretical on the administration side, I think. And the idea of including the administrators, again, is to sort of saturate the world with the idea of the orchestra. So it's not just that it's the musicians who are the ones out there sort of showcasing the world, it's the administrators.

And when we [00:32:00] have LMP departments for learning and participation or dementia or all these other incredible. Elements to what the orchestra does. In essence, we are so much more than what we do on the stage. So one saturating that narrative wider, but also on the conference side of things and showing the orchestras a place that people would want to come and work.

So hopefully it's a lightning rod for talent to come and join the orchestra. So again, on the flip side, it's a big benefit of the admin side joining in. 

[00:32:23] Aubrey Bergauer: Oh, I love that. I, I say all the time, it takes all of us on stage and off to do what we do, so I really, I love that so much. Was there anything that didn't work?

I'm wondering or anything that you would do differently if you did it again? I'm curious your response to that. 

[00:32:39] David Taylor: I think trying to get to more people in the organization to speak to and bring them on board, which is always a challenge with times and constraints and everything. So for example, the halfway meeting, bringing on the marketing team, for me it was the first time meeting some of those people.

And so it was very difficult for them to have like a flash through of what the program was, the ideas, the goals, and just me sort of. Blurbing out in five minutes [00:33:00] and definitely hoping they come on board on that journey. And it was great that they were really enthusiastic, but uh, from my side, I would love to have had that conversation earlier on and also hopefully to, um, yeah, bring on board that journey and include them in part of that process.

Yeah, so I think the more people in the organization who are aware of it, that'd be really fantastic. And I think as well, hopefully having more of a springboard at the end of it. So in ideal world, it's a cohort of 10, then a next cohort of 10, and the next cohort of 10. So instead of it being like a standalone project, it's almost an upward spiral of all these different things.

I'm just going back to your idea of unexpected successes. The orchestra were doing a residency at Gaston Opera in the summer and they, the participants were using their car sharing journeys to then bounce ideas off each other during the time as well. So all of a sudden there was a, an environment of this being a conversation and something that was the norm rather than that violinist over there is doing self-promotion and that's bad.

It became much more open, which I was really excited about. 

[00:33:49] Aubrey Bergauer: Yeah, good. What next steps would you suggest from what you learned here? So what would come next, such as how could smaller orchestras or individuals implement these lessons? [00:34:00] 

[00:34:00] David Taylor: Brilliant question. Um, the good news is that the actual program itself is completely usable at any organization side.

I think there's actually really interesting benefits for smaller ensembles. So with them when they're usually on tour, there's no chance of a marketing person going around and actually being a part of that journey. So actually having the musicians be a part of the ability of creating marketing content when they're on the road is a hugely powerful thing that can really tie in as part of that and also significantly cheaper than.

Bringing on a full-time member of staff to facilitate that. And that's actually a conversation I'm having with a few ensembles at the moment of how it could look like for them. So yeah, there's all these lessons and essence is about individuals defining their own journey. So the actual size of the orchestra, or if their individuals doesn't necessarily matter.

It's more how I then tie into each individual organization's needs of those group sessions. That's sort of, uh, the nuance of that. 

[00:34:50] Aubrey Bergauer: Question is, this was done with a small cohort of participants. How would you A, scale this and b, get buy-in from traditionalists? Very 

[00:34:59] David Taylor: [00:35:00] good question. So from running the cohort and also from doing other educational work and talks and workshops elsewhere, I reckon the cohort size can go up to 20 in practicality.

Um, that's partly in terms of the size of the group sessions themselves, but also for the amount of time it then takes for delivery of the individual sessions. I think in terms of traditionalists, it's again, showing what the, the results and the outcome is. I'm hopeful there's no one awareness in the world, but it does certainly take time to bring those conversations around.

One participant who was very enthusiastic about the program at the beginning of their journey was having conversations on the lines of, I'm not, I shouldn't sure if I want social media to be a part of my output. So they were relatively traditional and bringing them on board, that journey insecurities is part of it.

I think the reasons a wrap behind the traditionalism is are always unique, and that's why they're the one-on-one sessions really powerful. And again, as I said, sort of 75% is how do you feel and the reasons behind why people are not doing this as part of their journey are very specific to them. So understanding those are huge, important part of it.

But I think as soon as, again, this becomes [00:36:00] more of the norm, the organization becomes on part of it, there's an ecosystem of this, an environment of it, it's easier to bring people more and more on that journey. So hopefully it's getting critical mass along with it. 

Yeah, 

[00:36:10] Aubrey Bergauer: I'll just add to that. I mean, I think it goes back to how we feel.

I used to, I used to hate that kind of stuff, and I've just, I've grown up a lot and now just see how much it really, how we feel matters. Whether that's our artists or somebody who is a traditionalist, reticent to change or somebody really gung ho for change. It's how we feel is so important. I just appreciate that.

You say, you're saying that that was such a three quarters of some of this work is that piece alone, I think that's really, um, it's really intelligent. So, 

[00:36:40] David Taylor: um, and realistically all the, the button pressing side is on Google. Anyone can Google it. But the hard part is actually then like how do I feel about it and what's right for me and all the things that come inside side of that.

So actually it's, yeah, that signs the way forward. 

[00:36:52] Aubrey Bergauer: So true. For so much of our work in this space, it's very emotionally intelligent. Okay. 

[00:36:56] David Taylor: One of the questions, I think it was really interesting, yeah. Um, is one from [00:37:00] Jeff about how do you present the benefit to musicians and what was their compensation?

Mm-hmm. So for with this, it was, there's no compensation, but the idea is that it's the orchestra investing into them for the sake of them being invested in. So they don't have to do anything for the orchestra solely. It's to basically provide them with training resources that they succeed. And hopefully that level of trust and cooperation is then what builds us to go forward.

So there's never sort of a, you get paid 50 pound per tweet sort of thing, or plugs. It's more to that. The orchestra is seeing the value in the players and off the back of it. It's a, a hope that they invest in the experience of the project. 

[00:37:31] Aubrey Bergauer: I just wanna say thank you, David, for sharing this with us. I'm just so glad that you are out there doing this leading the way.

Have a case study now to present. I also wanna mention on the administrative side, if you want some training this summer. I've got my summer up level. Also an online course that's on my website if you want more information there. Coaching, mentoring. Group coaching, how we feel is gonna be part of that too.

You better believe it. So with all of that, have a great day, evening, wherever you are in the world. It was a total pleasure. Bye everybody. [00:38:00] Hey off stagers. One of the things I hear from people the most is how frustrating this business can be. And for forward thinking people who want to make a difference, how to navigate that frustration in a positive way.

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That's all for today, folks. Thanks so much for listening and keep up with more content like this by following me on LinkedIn or Instagram at Aubrey Bergauer. Definitely hit that follow button to subscribe to this podcast. And if you like what you heard here, will you consider leaving a review or rating?

I'd be so grateful for your help and support in that. Thanks again. See you next time on the Offstage Mic. The offstage mic was produced by me, Aubrey Bergauer. And edited by Novo Music, a studio of all women, audio engineers and musicians. The [00:41:00] narrative is changing for arts and culture, and I'm so glad you're here to be a part of it.

This is a production of changing the narrative.